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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2372
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1591 of 1818 (878026)
06-24-2020 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1590 by dwise1
06-24-2020 8:59 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
dwise1 writes:

Deception is the primary mission of piece-of-shit creationists like yourself.

I like that, do you mind if I use it, with proper credit, of course.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1590 by dwise1, posted 06-24-2020 8:59 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1592 by dwise1, posted 06-24-2020 9:47 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded
 Message 1593 by Kleinman, posted 06-24-2020 9:48 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4194
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1592 of 1818 (878027)
06-24-2020 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1591 by Tanypteryx
06-24-2020 9:17 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
You have my permission.

Though you know, I have encountered a few honest creationists. But they don't remain creationists for long.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1591 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-24-2020 9:17 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 400
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1593 of 1818 (878028)
06-24-2020 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1591 by Tanypteryx
06-24-2020 9:17 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
dwise1 writes:

Deception is the primary mission of piece-of-shit creationists like yourself.

Tanypteryx writes:

I like that, do you mind if I use it, with proper credit, of course.


Nothing deceptive there is there Phat. I guess that's the best they can come up with since they can't do the mathematics of evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1591 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-24-2020 9:17 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1595 by dwise1, posted 06-24-2020 10:18 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18332
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1594 of 1818 (878029)
06-24-2020 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1588 by Kleinman
06-24-2020 7:25 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

Don't be bashful, just say that mammals evolve into mammals.


So, evolution is only possible within the mammal "kind".

Kleinman writes:

But don't start with dogs evolve into cats. That would be mathematically irrational.


It would also be classic creationism. Your slip is showing.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1588 by Kleinman, posted 06-24-2020 7:25 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1596 by Kleinman, posted 06-24-2020 10:29 PM ringo has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4194
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1595 of 1818 (878034)
06-24-2020 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1593 by Kleinman
06-24-2020 9:48 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Nothing deceptive there is there Phat. I guess that's the best they can come up with since they can't do the mathematics of evolution.

Says the clueless creationist who keeps demonstrating his own gross disability to do any math, let alone "the mathematics of evolution" which he (ie, YOU, whatever your real name is, you fraud).

And then there's your inability to recognize that names do have a function as identifiers. Is there anything at all that you are not clueless about?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1593 by Kleinman, posted 06-24-2020 9:48 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 400
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1596 of 1818 (878035)
06-24-2020 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1594 by ringo
06-24-2020 9:54 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

Don't be bashful, just say that mammals evolve into mammals.

Ringo writes:

So, evolution is only possible within the mammal "kind".


That's what the mathematical and empirical evidence shows. But you first need to learn how to do the mathematics of evolution.
Kleinman writes:

But don't start with dogs evolve into cats. That would be mathematically irrational.

Ringo writes:

It would also be classic creationism. Your slip is showing.


That's ok, at least I know how to do the mathematics of evolution. Perhaps you want to try to use Felsenstein's model of DNA evolution to predict the behavior of the Kishony experiment?
F81 model (Felsenstein 1981)
Wikipedia writes:

F81, the Felsenstein's 1981 model,[12] is an extension of the JC69 model in which base frequencies are allowed to vary from 0.25


I put that quote from the link so dwise1 won't claim I'm making him discuss a bare link. I could post the whole page and he wouldn't have any idea what they are doing.

I'll even make it easier, use the Jukes-Cantor (JC69 model) which is described earlier in the link. Don't be surprised if you can't do it. They are using an incorrect transition matrix.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1594 by ringo, posted 06-24-2020 9:54 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1597 by ringo, posted 06-24-2020 10:39 PM Kleinman has responded
 Message 1599 by dwise1, posted 06-25-2020 1:29 AM Kleinman has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18332
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1597 of 1818 (878036)
06-24-2020 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1596 by Kleinman
06-24-2020 10:29 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

ringo writes:

So, evolution is only possible within the mammal "kind".


That's what the mathematical and empirical evidence shows.

Do you believe the earth is young? Do you believe the Flood happened?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1596 by Kleinman, posted 06-24-2020 10:29 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1598 by Kleinman, posted 06-24-2020 11:04 PM ringo has responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 400
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1598 of 1818 (878037)
06-24-2020 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1597 by ringo
06-24-2020 10:39 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Ringo writes:

So, evolution is only possible within the mammal "kind".

Kleinman writes:

That's what the mathematical and empirical evidence shows.

Ringo writes:

Do you believe the earth is young? Do you believe the Flood happened?


I've never done a scientific study of either subject. But I have done a scientific study of evolution. So you are not going to try to use Felsenstein's model to do the mathematics of DNA evolution? Try the Jukes-Cantor model, the math is easy. It just won't predict the behavior of the Kishony experiment and I've even told you where to find the error in their models. That's the correct evolution science that should be taught in schools. Then let the kids figure out if reptiles can evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals. But at least they will know how drug-resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1597 by ringo, posted 06-24-2020 10:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1603 by ringo, posted 06-25-2020 10:10 AM Kleinman has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4194
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1599 of 1818 (878038)
06-25-2020 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1596 by Kleinman
06-24-2020 10:29 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
That's ok, at least I know how to do the mathematics of evolution.

Except you keep demonstrating that you don't. You don't even know the multiplicative rule. How do we know that? Besides repeatedly misapplying it (as far as we can tell from your double-talk), you run away every time you're asked to describe what you mean by that term -- we know what we were taught in our math classes on probability, but you're talking about something quite different (as indicated by your misapplication) and on top of that you cannot even describe it!

So then now you are openly lying?

I put that quote from the link so dwise1 won't claim I'm making him discuss a bare link. I could post the whole page and he wouldn't have any idea what they are doing.

Even then, you would still be arguing through bare links which is against forum rules! You need to explain it in your own words using links and quotes from links for support, NOT as a substitute!

Damn you sleazy creationists! You just keep getting worse and worse.

Kleinman writes:

But don't start with dogs evolve into cats. That would be mathematically irrational.

Ringo writes:

It would also be classic creationism. Your slip is showing.


That's ok, at least I know how to do the mathematics of evolution.

Except you just demonstrated that you do NOT know how to do the mathematics of evolution. You just demonstrated that your "model" for evolution is pure crap since it is based on wildly false premises. That means that any math that you do based on such a pure crap model is itself pure crap. The vital part of doing "the mathematics of evolution" is to construct a valid model. Your "model" is completely FUBAR (fouled up beyond all recognition).

Please stop lying. I know that lies and deception are all that creationists have to work with, but please stop!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1596 by Kleinman, posted 06-24-2020 10:29 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1601 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 7:04 AM dwise1 has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1140
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1600 of 1818 (878043)
06-25-2020 5:03 AM


More history...
I’ve found another thread, re-hashing this line, this time from 2007 (and it would appear participated in by our own esteemed Dr A):

Annoying creationists - Page 173 - International Skeptics Forum

The patterns and the conclusions people were coming to about our creationist contributor then seem very much what we are seeing here.

To quote Kleinman from earlier in the thread:

And by their blunders on correctly explaining the mathematics of DNA evolution, they are harming people with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments.

A minimum of 13 years he’s apparently been banging this drum, and the multi billion dollar drug companies (who would make the corporate killing of all corporate killings with a more effective cancer treatment) have not been beating a path to his door.

One wonders why that could be.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

Replies to this message:
 Message 1602 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 7:06 AM vimesey has not yet responded
 Message 1609 by dwise1, posted 06-25-2020 1:42 PM vimesey has not yet responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 400
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1601 of 1818 (878044)
06-25-2020 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1599 by dwise1
06-25-2020 1:29 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

That's ok, at least I know how to do the mathematics of evolution.

dwise1 writes:

Except you keep demonstrating that you don't. You don't even know the multiplicative rule. How do we know that? Besides repeatedly misapplying it (as far as we can tell from your double-talk), you run away every time you're asked to describe what you mean by that term -- we know what we were taught in our math classes on probability, but you're talking about something quite different (as indicated by your misapplication) and on top of that you cannot even describe it!

So then now you are openly lying?


I'm not lying, you are just too stubborn and arrogant to go through the math. I can take you through the math based on a real example and do it in the context of the Kishony experiment. But I don't think it is in your character to do that.
Kleinman writes:

I put that quote from the link so dwise1 won't claim I'm making him discuss a bare link. I could post the whole page and he wouldn't have any idea what they are doing.

dwise1 writes:

Even then, you would still be arguing through bare links which is against forum rules! You need to explain it in your own words using links and quotes from links for support, NOT as a substitute!

Damn you sleazy creationists! You just keep getting worse and worse.


If you want, I'll take you through the mathematics as I approached it using the "at least one rule" in my publications and I'll take you through step by step showing each assumption and each step in the math and how you correlate it to a real example, in this case the Kishony experiment. Once you understand that, I'll show you how to do the mathematics using Markov chains and do that step by step as well and I'll show you why the Jukes-Cantor and Felsenstein models are incorrect for modeling DNA evolution. The correction to those Markov Chain models you will have to wait for when my next paper gets published. I'll start that description tomorrow in the "Do you really understand the mathematics of evolution?" thread. You can challenge every step, every assumption, see if you have the intellectual integrity to engage in that kind of debate. I don't think you have that integrity but surprise us all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1599 by dwise1, posted 06-25-2020 1:29 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1607 by dwise1, posted 06-25-2020 12:57 PM Kleinman has responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 400
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1602 of 1818 (878045)
06-25-2020 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1600 by vimesey
06-25-2020 5:03 AM


Re: More history...
Kleinman writes:

And by their blunders on correctly explaining the mathematics of DNA evolution, they are harming people with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments.

vimesey writes:

A minimum of 13 years he’s apparently been banging this drum, and the multi billion dollar drug companies (who would make the corporate killing of all corporate killings with a more effective cancer treatment) have not been beating a path to his door.

One wonders why that could be.


Yep, and that debate started with discussions with Tom Snyder's (computational molecular biologist at the National Cancer Institute) programmer of the EV computer simulation of random mutation and natural selection. Snyder used to have a huge web site, that's gone and I'm still here doing the correct explanation of his model. And why would the drug companies beat a path to my door? I'm using old inexpensive generic drugs to treat MRSA successfully. They aren't going to make billions of dollars off of that but it certainly reduces the medical bills that taxpayers have to pay. You see, I've learned something about evolution in this debate. The question is can you learn something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1600 by vimesey, posted 06-25-2020 5:03 AM vimesey has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18332
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1603 of 1818 (878050)
06-25-2020 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1598 by Kleinman
06-24-2020 11:04 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

I've never done a scientific study of either subject.


I asked what you believe. If you believe in classic creationist nonsense like created kinds, it seems reasonable to wonder what other classic creationism you're pushing.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1598 by Kleinman, posted 06-24-2020 11:04 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1604 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 11:11 AM ringo has responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 400
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1604 of 1818 (878054)
06-25-2020 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1603 by ringo
06-25-2020 10:10 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

I've never done a scientific study of either subject.

Ringo writes:

I asked what you believe. If you believe in classic creationist nonsense like created kinds, it seems reasonable to wonder what other classic creationism you're pushing.


I have no interest in telling you what I believe, just like I have no interest in hearing what you believe. If you have something that you can prove mathematically and empirically (that's what is called science), present your proof. You certainly haven't shown any understanding of the mathematics and empirical evidence of DNA evolution. All I have seen so far from your clique is fossil tea-leaf reading. I take that back, Taq pointed out that it takes 3e9 replications for a beneficial mutation to occur when the mutation rate is e-9. Not much else from you fossil tea-leaf readers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1603 by ringo, posted 06-25-2020 10:10 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1612 by ringo, posted 06-25-2020 3:23 PM Kleinman has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8409
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1605 of 1818 (878057)
06-25-2020 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1567 by Kleinman
06-24-2020 9:29 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

You either have not followed or understood my discussion with Taq on the "Do you really understand the mathematics of evolution" topic. If you have 2 possible beneficial mutations, the number of replications required is still over a billion replications.

If there are 10,000 possible beneficial mutations, what is the probability then? What about 2 million possible beneficial mutations?

But what happens after that first beneficial mutation occurs? Are there many beneficial mutations for the next and ensuing evolutionary steps for that selection pressure?

You still don't understand sexual reproduction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1567 by Kleinman, posted 06-24-2020 9:29 AM Kleinman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1606 by AZPaul3, posted 06-25-2020 12:32 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
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