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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5118
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1606 of 1774 (878061)
06-25-2020 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1605 by Taq
06-25-2020 12:15 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
I don't think he understands that when math and observation clash it is the math that is wrong.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1605 by Taq, posted 06-25-2020 12:15 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4194
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1607 of 1774 (878067)
06-25-2020 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1601 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 7:04 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

That's ok, at least I know how to do the mathematics of evolution.

dwise1 writes:

Except you keep demonstrating that you don't. You don't even know the multiplicative rule. How do we know that? Besides repeatedly misapplying it (as far as we can tell from your double-talk), you run away every time you're asked to describe what you mean by that term -- we know what we were taught in our math classes on probability, but you're talking about something quite different (as indicated by your misapplication) and on top of that you cannot even describe it!

So then now you are openly lying?


I'm not lying, you are just too stubborn and arrogant to go through the math.

Project much?

You claim to know how do to the mathematics of evolution, yet you repeatedly demonstrate that you do not -- not only that, but that you do not understand modeling and the meaningful application of mathematics in biology (ie, you insist that one specific model of one small part of the subject applies to the whole of the science). Furthermore, you actively and persistently try to cover up the facts.

If you want, I'll take you through the mathematics as I approached it using the "at least one rule" in my publications and I'll take you through step by step showing each assumption and each step in the math and how you correlate it to a real example, in this case the Kishony experiment.

All I have been asking you to do is to tell us just that the fark you are talking about! Specifically, that you define your terminology.

Classic creationist lying and deception is most often based on redefining terms, such that they will mouth the words while actually saying something entirely different (AKA "semantic shifting"). That is exactly what you are doing! And have been doing for the past 13 years!

You only use the term "multiplicative rule" and everybody who has ever studied probability (which includes many of us here, which is why we question your BS) but then you misapply it.

Specifically, you said that you applied the "multiplicative rule" to the problem of how probable it is a particular mutation (with a given probability of e-9) for a population of bacteria which numbers more than e+9. Furthermore, you indicate that it would take E+9 replications for that to happen. How is the "multiplicative rule" supposed to apply to that problem?

Since you creationists routinely redefine terminology in order to practice your deceptions, it is perfectly reasonable to ask for your definition of that term. And you avoid that like the plague! What are you covering up? Why do you feel so strongly that you must cover it up? What are you hiding?

JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION! DEFINE YOUR TERMS!

Edited by dwise1, : removed editing remnant at end


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1601 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 7:04 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1608 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 1:13 PM dwise1 has responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 386
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1608 of 1774 (878070)
06-25-2020 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1607 by dwise1
06-25-2020 12:57 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
dwise1 writes:

Specifically, you said that you applied the "multiplicative rule" to the problem of how probable it is a particular mutation (with a given probability of e-9) for a population of bacteria which numbers more than e+9. Furthermore, you indicate that it would take E+9 replications for that to happen. How is the "multiplicative rule" supposed to apply to that problem?


Go to the "Do you really understand the mathematics of evolution" thread, I've started at Msg 150 and I'll show you exactly how the multiplication rule applies. And I'm using the Kishony experiment as the example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1607 by dwise1, posted 06-25-2020 12:57 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1610 by dwise1, posted 06-25-2020 1:45 PM Kleinman has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4194
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1609 of 1774 (878071)
06-25-2020 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1600 by vimesey
06-25-2020 5:03 AM


Re: More history...
Wow! Good find! This turkey (an old American perjorative) has been pulling this crap for 13 years. And he still has not learned anything!

BTW, instead of discussing technical issues on a forum with peers who have the technical training to offer substantive discussion, he keeps seeking out general-public forums where members would generally lack that level of technical training or the specific technical experience with the "subject matter".

This is of course a typical creationist bullying tactic, especially when all his responses is "go review these highly technical papers and critique them completely and rigorously" -- which is ironic since we have no indication that he has ever read them, let alone understood them. That's also the typical creationist tactic of the "unanswerable question" in which you seek to place your "opponent" (which should not be a role in a discussion) at a disadvantage. Creationists got that tactic from the fundamentalist proselytizers. A local creationist I had an email correspondence with tried that on me repeatedly and he had no idea what to do when I would answer his questions and especially when I tried to discuss it with him -- he would either falsely claim I didn't answer his question (to which I would ask for discussion as to why he thought that, which he would never ever answer), throw yet another "unanswerable question" at me (to the same effect), or he would run away (in one case, he even canceled his email account).

And we see that both here and 13 years ago (plus someone found "Kleinman" pulling the exact same crap on yet another forum) how "Kleinman" constantly tried to bully us, throw impossible questions/tasks at us, and refused to answer the simplest of our questions for him, including the one that all creationists are incapable of answering: "What do you mean by that?" and "Please clarify your answer."

A couple messages from that 13-year-old forum:

quote:
joobs writes:

kleinman writes:

So when it comes to whose claims to accept, Dr Schneider, the peer reviewed and published author of ev who many times has claimed his model simulates reality, or you who admits that evolution isn’t your field, I’ll accept Dr Schneider’s claim on this topic over you any day.

And your acceptance of his model isn't in question. In fact, this is a bizarre non-sequitor. Also, you should point out my admittedly novice understanding of evolution. It only makes you look more foolish. Indeed, as a lay person, for me to find such glaringly stupid errors on your part only demonstrates how wrothless your entire argument is. Is that really what you want people to see?

So, Are you going to answer my question or will you give another nonsequitor evasion and continue to be a silly child?


quote:
rocketdodger writes:

kleinman writes:

I didn’t have to rocketwhomissesthetarget. Paul did it for me.


Err... no, he didn't... because he has been telling you that his additions aren't meant to show what you contend they show.

It is only your utterly unmatched foolishness that leads you to think you know, better than the very programmer who wrote the code, what the code represents.

kleinman writes:

Now I DOUBLE-DARE YOU to show n+1 selection pressures evolve more quickly than n selection pressures. Wait, make that a TRIPLE-DARE YOU.

I did, within the context of my own program. Adequate has done so within the context of his. We all have shown you in the context of the ev program. You will undoubtedly respond to these statements in a childish way, demanding the evidence and presenting obsolete quotes from Adequate and I, but everyone knows such a response is nothing more than a pathetic diversion from a sad creature who has run out of options.

It is interesting to note that although you consistently state that we are all wrong you have also consistently failed to show us why.


quote:
rocketdodger writes:

Dr Adequate writes:

So, has kleinman done anything new this week?

Nope. Just more out of context and misinforming repostings of the honest statements you and I have made regarding the limitations of our programs, followed by that ********** laughing dog gif.

As usual, we put forth valid questions and counter-arguments, and he responds by "throwing feces at the keyboard" as joobz would say.


So in 13 years, our little "Kleinman" has learned nothing at all and has not changed one whit.

I noticed that Dr Adequate was on that forum 13 years ago. And was somehow banned.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1600 by vimesey, posted 06-25-2020 5:03 AM vimesey has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4194
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1610 of 1774 (878072)
06-25-2020 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1608 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 1:13 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Go to the "Do you really understand the mathematics of evolution" thread, I've started at Msg 150 and I'll show you exactly how the multiplication rule applies. And I'm using the Kishony experiment as the example.

Frankly, I do not believe that you will. I believe that you will continue to evade answering my simple direct question. Why? Because you are a creationist and my decades of experience have demonstrated that, with extremely few exceptions, all creationists are dishonest liars intent on deception. And, no, you are most definitely not one of those extremely rare exceptions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1608 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 1:13 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1611 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 2:05 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 386
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1611 of 1774 (878076)
06-25-2020 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1610 by dwise1
06-25-2020 1:45 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

Go to the "Do you really understand the mathematics of evolution" thread, I've started at Msg 150 and I'll show you exactly how the multiplication rule applies. And I'm using the Kishony experiment as the example.

dwise1 writes:

Frankly, I do not believe that you will. I believe that you will continue to evade answering my simple direct question. Why? Because you are a creationist and my decades of experience have demonstrated that, with extremely few exceptions, all creationists are dishonest liars intent on deception. And, no, you are most definitely not one of those extremely rare exceptions.


So don't go over to the "Do you really understand the mathematics of evolution" thread, Msg 150. Just stop being such a whiny crybaby saying I don't explain my links.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1610 by dwise1, posted 06-25-2020 1:45 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1612 of 1774 (878092)
06-25-2020 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1604 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 11:11 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

I have no interest in telling you what I believe...


It's becoming clear that you have an interest in hiding what you believe. It took some doing to ferret out the fact that your ideas about evolution are thoroughly creationist-based.

Kleinman writes:

If you have something that you can prove mathematically and empirically (that's what is called science), present your proof.


Science doesn't deal in proofs.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1604 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 11:11 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1613 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 3:32 PM ringo has responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 386
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1613 of 1774 (878094)
06-25-2020 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1612 by ringo
06-25-2020 3:23 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

If you have something that you can prove mathematically and empirically (that's what is called science), present your proof.

ringo writes:

Science doesn't deal in proofs.


That's why your beliefs are pseudo-science. And we definitely don't need that taught to naive school children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1612 by ringo, posted 06-25-2020 3:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1614 by ringo, posted 06-25-2020 3:39 PM Kleinman has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1614 of 1774 (878096)
06-25-2020 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1613 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 3:32 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

ringo writes:

Science doesn't deal in proofs.


That's why your beliefs are pseudo-science.

If you're going to shoot yourself in the foot, at least take it out of your mouth first.

No, science does not deal in proofs.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1613 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 3:32 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1615 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 3:52 PM ringo has responded
 Message 1658 by dad, posted 06-28-2020 7:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 386
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1615 of 1774 (878099)
06-25-2020 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1614 by ringo
06-25-2020 3:39 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
ringo writes:

No, science does not deal in proofs.


It certainly does not deal with fossil tea-leaf reading, phrenology, or astrology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1614 by ringo, posted 06-25-2020 3:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1616 by ringo, posted 06-25-2020 3:56 PM Kleinman has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1616 of 1774 (878102)
06-25-2020 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1615 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 3:52 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

It certainly does not deal with fossil tea-leaf reading, phrenology, or astrology.


And proofs. It doesn't deal in proofs.

Seriously, you didn't know that?


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1615 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 3:52 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1617 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 4:02 PM ringo has responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 386
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1617 of 1774 (878104)
06-25-2020 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1616 by ringo
06-25-2020 3:56 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

It certainly does not deal with fossil tea-leaf reading, phrenology, or astrology.

ringo writes:

And proofs. It doesn't deal in proofs.
Seriously, you didn't know that?


What does your fossil tea-leaf reading tell you about the Kishony and Lenski experiments? Or doesn't your science include experiments as well?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1616 by ringo, posted 06-25-2020 3:56 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1618 by ringo, posted 06-25-2020 4:23 PM Kleinman has not yet responded
 Message 1619 by Taq, posted 06-25-2020 4:30 PM Kleinman has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1618 of 1774 (878106)
06-25-2020 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1617 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 4:02 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

What does your fossil tea-leaf reading ...


Mocking science like that just makes you look worse.

Kleinman writes:

... tell you about the Kishony and Lenski experiments?


Science tells me that one or two experiments don't overthrow a robust theory like evolution. Somebody may have misinterpreted the experiments - i.e. you. If those experiments were as earth-shattering as you seem to think, there would be talk of Nobel Prizes.

Kleinman writes:

Or doesn't your science include experiments as well?


It isn't "my" science. It's everybody's science.

And what you're talking about is a silver bullet. There are few of them in science.

Edited by ringo, : Spellelling.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1617 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 4:02 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8409
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1619 of 1774 (878108)
06-25-2020 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1617 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 4:02 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

What does your fossil tea-leaf reading tell you about the Kishony and Lenski experiments?

If you think there is only one possible mutation in a whole genome for every single adaptation, and that there is only one possible and specific adaptation for every environmental challenge, then you need to get out into the real world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1617 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 4:02 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1620 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 4:44 PM Taq has responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 386
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1620 of 1774 (878114)
06-25-2020 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1619 by Taq
06-25-2020 4:30 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:

What does your fossil tea-leaf reading tell you about the Kishony and Lenski experiments?

Taq writes:

If you think there is only one possible mutation in a whole genome for every single adaptation, and that there is only one possible and specific adaptation for every environmental challenge, then you need to get out into the real world.


So you think that Tiktaalik could have just as easily been a tripod or a pentapod?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1619 by Taq, posted 06-25-2020 4:30 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1621 by Taq, posted 06-25-2020 4:47 PM Kleinman has responded

  
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