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Author | Topic: Should we teach both evolution and religion in school? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 528 From: United States Joined: |
This calculation isn't that large. And I don't think these types of Markov chain calculations would benefit because each transition step must be done sequentially. These calculations are simple matrix multiplications. The one base problem is a 1x4 vector times a 4x4 matrix and the two base problem is a 1x16 vector times a 16x16 matrix for each transitional step. That ends up being 4 equations to evaluate for the 1 base Jukes-Cantor model and 16 equations for the 2 base Jukes-Cantor model. The Jukes-Cantor model has some symmetry that can be taken advantage of to reduce the 2 base case to just 4 equations but these 4 equations have to be evaluated before the system can take the next transition. All this math is simple additions and multiplications and requires very little computer memory, the rate of calculation is clock rate limited. There are some 5GHz computers available which could cut the computation time down to less than a month but I decided its not worth the money and effort. By time I got the faster computer and got the appropriate computer programs set up and running properly would take about a week and this would just be for this one task. The computers I have now work fine for all that I do. I actually wanted more time to think about this paper before I submit it anyway. You should be able to see why based on the response to these discussions. But thanks for your advice anyway. Once this calculation is complete, I don't think it will be necessary to go on to the three base Jukes-Cantor system. Actually, this paper already predicts that behavior (as well as the two base system): The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
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dad Member (Idle past 86 days) Posts: 337 Joined: |
The evidence is that we have no evidence nature was the same or, therefore genetics was working the same. Your fail to produce any is evidence.
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dad Member (Idle past 86 days) Posts: 337 Joined: |
quote:The issue is that lions and wolves will eat plants rather than being carnivorous. Not whether some dog may eat a little grass. Missing that is missing the forest for the trees. quote: We can predict things based on the processes in place that we observe. You cannot assume those same processes existed in the past and that what is now probable was also probable in the past. If we predict that a group of people that were relocated, for example, to a hot place in Africa would see inherited skin colour change is say, 3000 years, based on how fast DNA changes and adaptation and etc work, that is only true as long as it is the same for that time. To apply probability based on observed features of the present nature to life way back in Adam or Noah's day iis to assume that all things were and remained the same. Unless you know they did, you cannot use probability. quote:The issue with the theory of the evolution of life has to do with the hand God dealt animals and people and nature long ago, not what hand we are dealt now. quote: Right, you can only speak to how things work now. Science cannot say that either things were the same or not, and whether things will be the same or not. So as far as science goes all we can say is we don't know. As far as the bible goes, we know all kinds of animals on earth were in one place on one boat something like, say 4500 years ago. There is no way all the millions of species could have adapted from one kind of each animal that long ago if the present nature had been in place. Nor any way plants could grow hyper fast, or people live 1000 years etc. Similarly, in the future spoken of in the bible, we could not have the present nature in place. One example is that animals will change from carnivorous, to cud chewers and vegetarians, and this will happen in a very short time.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 5527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
That's not the way this works.
YOU said the nature was different. That DNA and chemistry worked differently. That is YOUR contention. Now give acceptable evidence or retract your errant claim. Factio Republicana delenda est. ![]()
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dad Member (Idle past 86 days) Posts: 337 Joined: |
Science says it was the same and that the present is the key to the past. How this works is you better prove it.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 5527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
So you have nothing to evidence your contention that the laws of nature were different long ago. Conveniently different so that your religious fairy tales would come true.
Without such evidence we reject your "other different" nature bull and call your fairy tale stories delusional.
Yes it does. You want to try and prove this wrong then have at it ... idiot, Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Factio Republicana delenda est. ![]()
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Phat Member Posts: 14868 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Any truth claim made in the forum---especially in the science forums...needs reasonable evidence. Belief cannot enter the picture in a science forum.
Dear Dad: Basically what you are doing is this: Dads basic defense: None of you were around in those times and can thus not invalidate anything that my belief says. But again...this is a science forum. Assertions and beliefs cannot be used as an argument here. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
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dad Member (Idle past 86 days) Posts: 337 Joined: |
My point also. Any science claim that uses a basis of a same nature in the past ads true and valid needs reasonable evidence.
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dad Member (Idle past 86 days) Posts: 337 Joined: |
quote: So you have nothing to evidence your contention that the laws of nature were the same long ago. Got it. It is not my contention that science knows, that would be your contention. I am happy to go with the records of the past we do have.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 5527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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We know the laws of nature are consistent through time as well as through space. This is long settled science that requires no new justification especially to a religious crackpot.
Well ... you said something right. I cannot disagree. And since the scientific consensus on this is long settled and you are a lone religious lunatic howling at the internet, the science wins.
Record of the past? You mean the old embellishments of ancient oral histories written and sloppily rewritten in a millennia-old game of "telephone" by a wandering tribe of goat herders and a string of delusional religious zealots? Complete with talking snake? Compelling. Not. Science wins again. Factio Republicana delenda est. ![]()
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 528 From: United States Joined: |
Dig a little deeper: Get Your Paws on These Vegan Dog and Cat Food Products | PETA
And you can't assume that things worked differently in the past unless you have some evidence to do so. With scientific analysis, you work with what you have available and you test your assumptions. So far, every experiment known validates probability theory. If you have experimental evidence which invalidates the theory, you should present it.
Are you talking about abiogenesis or the TOE? Because both are shown to be mathematically irrational theories by probability theory.
But if you think that things worked differently in the past, you need to present your evidence.
If you honor the Bible, why don't you capitalize the word?
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ringo Member Posts: 18854 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.5 |
It's been done. Nobody owes you your own private explanation. "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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dad Member (Idle past 86 days) Posts: 337 Joined: |
Any science claim that uses a basis of a same nature in the past ads true and valid needs reasonable evidence.
Post where you claim it was done and it will be shown to be basically belief based religious fable telling.
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dad Member (Idle past 86 days) Posts: 337 Joined: |
quote:If you are claiming that special diets for carnivores is fulfilling what the bible says about lions eating grass, then you have no respect for Scripture. Seriously? We are told serpents will no longer be dangerous, lions will lay with the lamb and play with toddlers safely etc. Obviously this requites very fundamental changes in nature. quote: And you can't assume that things worked the same in the past unless you have some evidence to do so. Nor can you use recent scientific experiments about how things now work, and apply this to an unknown future or past. quote: The TOE. (abiogenesis is such a total fable it doesn't matter) If all evolving started with the first man and woman and animals, then how could we run math on that? If adapting was as fast as the timeframe Scriptre indicates, there is no way modern rates applied. So using modern evolving rates and realities as a basis for the numbers to run math is not possible.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 528 From: United States Joined: |
No, what I am saying is there is evidence today that carnivores can survive on non-meat diets. Where is your evidence from the past or future that says carnivores can only survive on meat?
Why not, you do it all the time. You just did it with the diets of canines and felines. What evidence do you have that they can only survive on meat in the past or the future. We do have evidence that they can survive on a vegetarian diet today.
Do you think there was a time when the multiplication rule of probabilities did not apply in a stochastic process?
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