Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 76 (9011 total)
70 online now:
PaulK, Pollux (2 members, 68 visitors)
Newest Member: Burrawang
Upcoming Birthdays: Coragyps
Happy Birthday: DrJones*
Post Volume: Total: 881,651 Year: 13,399/23,288 Month: 329/795 Week: 30/95 Day: 11/19 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5374
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 1921 of 1960 (879677)
07-20-2020 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1920 by dad
07-19-2020 9:27 PM


Re: let my little people go
That is why the dull delusional foolishness of majikal religious thinking must be exorcised like the demon it is from the public schools. The lie that is religion does nothing but poison young minds. Only the truth of science can prevail against the tide of evil that religion has used to shackle the human mind for millennia.

Be gone religion! Be gone unclean spirit!
Leave this school in the name of the Real, the Evidenced and the Laws of Physics!

The Power of Science Compels You!
The Power of Science Compels You!
The Power of Science Compels You!


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1920 by dad, posted 07-19-2020 9:27 PM dad has not yet responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1971
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 1922 of 1960 (879682)
07-20-2020 8:05 AM


Closing For Now
Out of respect for the topic, and after reviewing the previous 15 posts, I am closing this topic for now.I have decided to become responsible for the many runaway topics which we have going on here. I am guilty of some of these, as it often seems that the discussion among we regulars often morphs into a vague one issue fits all argument which follows us from topic to topic. After viewing Mooses announcement, Topic abandonment warning (read and/or suffer the consequences) I realized that we have become somewhat lax at enforcing our guidelines. Some of our newer members have not helped and thus I decided to act. This particular topic is quite popular and I plan on reopening it once things have calmed down. Any off topic rabbit trails will be nipped in the bud.

Edited by AdminPhat, : clarification


  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  •   
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18799
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 1923 of 1960 (879690)
    07-20-2020 9:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 1920 by dad
    07-19-2020 9:27 PM


    Re: let my little people go
    dad writes:

    Well, offering an opinion that kids should no longer be taught lies in school....


    The courts have already agreed that children should not be taught lies/creationism im school.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1920 by dad, posted 07-19-2020 9:27 PM dad has not yet responded

      
    AdminPhat
    Administrator
    Posts: 1971
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-03-2004


    Message 1924 of 1960 (879755)
    07-21-2020 3:47 PM


    TOPIC SYNOPSIS
    I am reopening this topic provided that the conversation stays within the basic framework laid out in early posts.

    Topic Starter writes:

    How can we teach both evolution and religion in school when they seemingly conflict so much with one another? I found the video below on Derren Browns website today, and it pretty much shows the incorrect way to go about it, ie showing only only side of the spectrum.


    (Sounds like Ken Ham to me)

    Modulous writes:

    Yup. I was taught evolution and religion. I would have preferred better teaching of both, but it wasn't the end of the world.
    Of course, we shouldn't teach evolution and pick an arbitrary unsupported set of religious creation stories and present them uncritically as if they had the same level of support as evolution...as in the video you showed.
    The best way to teach religion is to simply teach people what different groups say they believe and what they do to express their beliefs. Instead of "God created the world in 6 days" you could start with "The Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christrianity and Islam believe that God created the world. Their creation story takes place over the course of 6 days although not all followers accept that this is a literal truth...tomorrow we will talk about the Sikhs beliefs about...
    I have no objection to that. Indeed: I insist it be a mandatory part of any reasonable education.

    Taq writes:

    We should teach science. I don't think anyone really disagrees. The theory of evolution is the most important theory in the field of biology, so it is important that it be taught. If students do want to pursue a career in the life sciences then they must have a basic understanding of the theory before going on to university.

    For religion, I think there is a way to approach the material that will benefit students. The best way to do this, IMHO, is to teach kids about other cultures and how religion plays a role in those cultures. Students could discuss how religion has helped to mold the political views of each culture, and how it relates to international relations. In today's world students should know the difference between Sunni's and Shi'a and how the friction between these sects has shaped the politics of the Middle East. I know from my college years that it is impossible to discuss the development of Western Civilization without discussing the emergence of Protestantism, Calvinism, etc. By incorporating religious education with history/civics I believe the material can be covered in an objective and informative manner.

    jar writes:

    I believe that if we hope to ever get an educated citizenry we need to teach evolution (a science subject) and also teach about religion (a social studies or sacred studies subject).

    As I ask in the thread about Should Sacred Studies be part of a general public school curricula, "Should Sacred Studies, the study of religions, their history, their effects on society, the basic tenets of each and inter-relationships be taught as part of the general public education in the US"?

    My answer is "most certainly."

    We cannot ignore the effects that religion has had on the world and all of us living through those effects. Kids should learn that the Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God, the basic tenets of the Eight Fold Path, the writings of Confucius and Mencius, what Taoism says, the Vedas, Greek, Roman, Germanic and Norse mythology.

    Kids should understand the horrific acts done in the name of religion, particularly the Genocide carried out by Christianity.


    RAZD, replying to a creationist writes:

    ... the theory of human evolution is a ridiculous science fiction story, ...

    Curiously this bald opinion has absolutely no effect on reality.

    I'll bet you can't define evolution properly -- care to try and prove me wrong?

    One should know what they are talking about before mocking it.

    ... Education system should be based on true evidence and history.

    And the teaching of science is based on real objective empirical evidence, repeated experiments and observations, and historical accumulation of knowledge validated by the scientific method.

    How do you determine what is "true evidence" and what makes it "true" as opposed to just being (real objective empirical) evidence? What is your paradigm for sorting truth from fiction and fantasy and ignorance?

    Both should be mentioned as theories.

    Can you define the difference between a scientific theory and a hypothetical conjecture?

    Should every mythology be taught as theory?

    Enjoy

    And finally...AZPaul3:

    That is why the dull delusional foolishness of majikal religious thinking must be exorcised like the demon it is from the public schools. The lie that is religion does nothing but poison young minds. Only the truth of science can prevail against the tide of evil that religion has used to shackle the human mind for millennia.

    Be gone religion! Be gone unclean spirit!
    Leave this school in the name of the Real, the Evidenced and the Laws of Physics!

    The Power of Science Compels You!
    The Power of Science Compels You!
    The Power of Science Compels You!

    Forum Guidelines Please stay on topic.

    Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  • Replies to this message:
     Message 1925 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 4:00 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

      
    Sarah Bellum
    Member
    Posts: 658
    Joined: 05-04-2019
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 1925 of 1960 (879758)
    07-21-2020 4:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 1924 by AdminPhat
    07-21-2020 3:47 PM


    Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS
    Oh definitely, we must teach both!

    Evolution is both an important pillar of basic science and a subject with many practical implications (just look at how virologists are studying the changes in organisms like . . . SARS-CoV-2).

    We must also learn about religion. Why were people in Northern Ireland killing each other so viciously? Which countries of the Middle East and Asia are predominantly Shia and which are Sunni and how does that affect their relations? How did the acceptance of their Emperor as a deity affect Japanese attitudes toward war in the 20th century? Why couldn't India maintain its integrity when it ceased to be a colony, breaking up into two countries (later three)?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1924 by AdminPhat, posted 07-21-2020 3:47 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7956
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.2


    (2)
    Message 1926 of 1960 (879762)
    07-21-2020 5:16 PM


    It's a null topic, of course both evolution and religion should be taught in schools. Evolution is an established and basic part of biology. Religion is an important part of global history and culture.

    But why pick on evolution? Is geology ok?

    And why restrict religious education to, presumably Christianity? And to dogma and practice rather than history and comparative religious study?


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    Replies to this message:
     Message 1927 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 12:26 PM Tangle has responded
     Message 1932 by dad, posted 07-22-2020 3:49 PM Tangle has not yet responded

      
    Kleinman
    Member (Idle past 5 days)
    Posts: 528
    From: United States
    Joined: 10-06-2016


    Message 1927 of 1960 (879772)
    07-22-2020 12:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 1926 by Tangle
    07-21-2020 5:16 PM


    Tangle writes:

    It's a null topic, of course both evolution and religion should be taught in schools. Evolution is an established and basic part of biology. Religion is an important part of global history and culture.
    But why pick on evolution? Is geology ok?

    And why restrict religious education to, presumably Christianity? And to dogma and practice rather than history and comparative religious study?


    I certainly haven't argued that evolution shouldn't be taught in school. But I also think that alchemy shouldn't be taught as chemistry and that is what the fish-to-mammals aficionados are doing with the teaching of evolution. Every biology student should understand the simple evolutionary experiments. And that means they must understand the mathematics of stochastic processes. Would you expect an engineering student to be able to describe the motion of a bridge or building in an earthquake but not be able to describe the motion of a mass and a spring or a pendulum? But that's what you expect from biology students. Biology students are being taught dogma, not science.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1926 by Tangle, posted 07-21-2020 5:16 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1928 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 1:22 PM Kleinman has responded
     Message 1930 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2020 3:05 PM Kleinman has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14672
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1928 of 1960 (879782)
    07-22-2020 1:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 1927 by Kleinman
    07-22-2020 12:26 PM


    In summation:
    kleinman writes:

    Biology students are being taught dogma, not science.

    Im watching to see if you drag us off topic. Correct me if im wrong, but you assert that the "science" that is taught is dogmatic, correct?
    Im assuming that this has to do with your pet phrase: "Fish-to-mammels- aficionados".

    OK so lets examine what dogma is defined as:

    American Heritage Dictionary writes:

    A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a religion.
    n. A principle or statement of ideas, or a group of such principles or statements, especially when considered to be authoritative or accepted uncritically.
    n. A settled opinion; a principle, maxim, or tenet held as being firmly established.

    So without derailing this topic, which admins wont allow...summarize your point. It seems to me that your point is that evolution itself is being incorrectly taught. Which is darn near off topic. It seems to be a view unique to you and a few others.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1927 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 12:26 PM Kleinman has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1929 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 2:26 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Kleinman
    Member (Idle past 5 days)
    Posts: 528
    From: United States
    Joined: 10-06-2016


    Message 1929 of 1960 (879786)
    07-22-2020 2:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 1928 by Phat
    07-22-2020 1:22 PM


    Re: In summation:
    Phat writes:

    So without derailing this topic, which admins wont allow...summarize your point. It seems to me that your point is that evolution itself is being incorrectly taught. Which is darn near off topic. It seems to be a view unique to you and a few others.


    I thought I had summarized my point in the previous post. Message 1927
    Kleinman writes:

    Every biology student should understand the simple evolutionary experiments. And that means they must understand the mathematics of stochastic processes. Would you expect an engineering student to be able to describe the motion of a bridge or building in an earthquake but not be able to describe the motion of a mass and a spring or a pendulum? But that's what you expect from biology students.


    You and Tangle have something in common. Neither of you understand the science of evolution. And neither do the fish-to-mammals aficionados. If any of you did, you could explain the mathematical behavior of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments. Evolution is not some mysterious process that is too complicated to comprehend. All the tools necessary to measure this process are readily available and have been applied in detail to the Lenski experiment and less so to the Kishony experiment. The population sizes have been measured, the mutations are identified, the rates of accumulation of these mutations are known and they accumulate in a mathematically predictable pattern if you correctly identify the variables in the evolutionary process. The Lenski experiment has been around for more than 30 years and the Kishony experiment for about 5 years. Where are the fish-to-mammals aficionados' papers which correctly describe these evolutionary process in either of these experiments? They don't exist. Yet they think they can describe the evolution of fish to mammals by saying they are distant relatives. If they think that, it has to be by the same evolutionary process that the Kishony and Lenski experiment follow, a billion replications for each adaptive mutation for every variant on that evolutionary trajectory and that's for the best of circumstances of only a single selection pressure acting at a time. So biology students aren't being taught science, they are being taugth mathematically irrational dogma about evolution. At least Tangle was honest enough to say that he doesn't understand this science. The rest of the fish-to-mammals aficionados should be so honest. This earth is not flat and fish don't evolve into mammals.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1928 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 1:22 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7956
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 1930 of 1960 (879788)
    07-22-2020 3:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 1927 by Kleinman
    07-22-2020 12:26 PM


    kleinman writes:

    I certainly haven't argued that evolution shouldn't be taught in school.

    Good

    But I also think that alchemy shouldn't be taught as chemistry

    Good, but luckily there's seems to be no religious objection to alchemy and it's not science so we're all clear.

    And that means they must understand the mathematics of stochastic processes.

    Luckily, statistics is part of every science degree that has any interest in research - which is pretty much all of them even social science these days - so you're not going to get any arguments. Rocket science it ain't.

    Biology students are being taught dogma, not science.

    And then you go and drop our pants and reveal yourself as a religiously motivated clown again. Evolution is core curriculum for biology and will be for ever.
    Or until you stand on the Nobel podium. I literally can't wait.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1927 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 12:26 PM Kleinman has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1931 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 3:27 PM Tangle has responded

      
    Kleinman
    Member (Idle past 5 days)
    Posts: 528
    From: United States
    Joined: 10-06-2016


    Message 1931 of 1960 (879789)
    07-22-2020 3:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 1930 by Tangle
    07-22-2020 3:05 PM


    Kleinman writes:

    But I also think that alchemy shouldn't be taught as chemistry

    Tangle writes:

    Good, but luckily there's seems to be no religious objection to alchemy and it's not science so we're all clear.


    Actually, you can turn lead into gold by nuclear transmutation. Can you explain how your so-called distant relatives, fish, evolved into mammals?
    Kleinman writes:

    And that means they must understand the mathematics of stochastic processes.

    Tangle writes:

    Luckily, statistics is part of every science degree that has any interest in research - which is pretty much all of them even social science these days - so you're not going to get any arguments. Rocket science it ain't.


    It's one thing to take a course in probabilities and statistics, it is quite another to understand how to apply the prinicples correctly, especially to evolution. And I know something about rocket science since that's what I was paid to do as an engineer and have published in that field.
    Kleinman writes:

    Biology students are being taught dogma, not science.

    Tangle writes:

    And then you go and drop our pants and reveal yourself as a religiously motivated clown again. Evolution is core curriculum for biology and will be for ever.


    I've talked to many biologists and biology students over the years and not one could explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments. The best explanation of evolution they can come up with is that fish are distant relatives of mammals. When are they going to learn how evolution works with direct relatives? Obviously, any training in statistics doesn't give you the capability to do the math.
    Tangle writes:

    Or until you stand on the Nobel podium. I literally can't wait.


    Edward Tatum already gave the correct explanation of evolution in his 1958 Nobel Laureate lecture. I just put the math to his explanation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1930 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2020 3:05 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1933 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2020 4:30 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

      
    dad
    Member
    Posts: 337
    Joined: 05-29-2020


    Message 1932 of 1960 (879794)
    07-22-2020 3:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 1926 by Tangle
    07-21-2020 5:16 PM


    TOE is religion in schools
    quote:
    Evolution is an established and basic part of biology.
    Not regarding origins of life, or the far past. What can be taught is how bacteria or whatever now adapt and evolve. To teach more IS religion.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1926 by Tangle, posted 07-21-2020 5:16 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1934 by AdminPhat, posted 07-22-2020 4:50 PM dad has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7956
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.2


    (1)
    Message 1933 of 1960 (879804)
    07-22-2020 4:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 1931 by Kleinman
    07-22-2020 3:27 PM


    Kleinman writes:

    I've talked to many biologists and biology students over the years and not one could explain the physics and mathematics of the I've talked to many biologists and biology students over the years and not one could explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments. i evolutionary experiments.

    Oh, you said 'mathematics of Kishony and Lenski' again. I'd missed it, having not heard you say it for 10 minutes at least. I dunno perhaps they don't think it's the ground-breaking, iconoclastic, generation defining idea that you think it is? Or even wrong? How quickly do they leave?


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1931 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 3:27 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1936 by vimesey, posted 07-22-2020 5:23 PM Tangle has responded

      
    AdminPhat
    Administrator
    Posts: 1971
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-03-2004


    Message 1934 of 1960 (879806)
    07-22-2020 4:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 1932 by dad
    07-22-2020 3:49 PM


    Re: TOE is religion in schools
    dad writes:

    What can be taught is how bacteria or whatever now adapt and evolve. To teach more IS religion.

    This argument has now been presented. This topic is not specifically about your claims regarding modern evolution. Please stop with this
    point which is off topic for this particular thread.
    I will be handing out one day suspensions for subsequent off topic violations.

  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1932 by dad, posted 07-22-2020 3:49 PM dad has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1935 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 5:22 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded
     Message 1951 by dad, posted 07-23-2020 4:47 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

      
    Kleinman
    Member (Idle past 5 days)
    Posts: 528
    From: United States
    Joined: 10-06-2016


    Message 1935 of 1960 (879809)
    07-22-2020 5:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 1934 by AdminPhat
    07-22-2020 4:50 PM


    Re: TOE is religion in schools
    dad writes:

    What can be taught is how bacteria or whatever now adapt and evolve. To teach more IS religion.

    Phat writes:

    This argument has now been presented. This topic is not specifically about your claims regarding modern evolution. Please stop with this point which is off topic for this particular thread.
    I will be handing out one day suspensions for subsequent off topic violations.


    So this topic is only about teaching 19th century concepts about evolution? Why doesn't it bother you about how evolution is taught? Don't you think that biology students should be taught how bacteria evolve resistance to drugs and why cancer treatments fail? Or do you think that biology students only need to be indoctrinated with the notion that fish are their distant relatives? I think this upsets you because you are one of those mathematically incompetent fish-to-mammals aficionados.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1934 by AdminPhat, posted 07-22-2020 4:50 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1938 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 6:09 PM Kleinman has responded

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020