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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1178
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1936 of 1960 (879810)
07-22-2020 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1933 by Tangle
07-22-2020 4:30 PM


He's been banging the same (very small) drum in informal websites like these for 13 years at least. And in all that time, he's not had the guts to publish his anti-evolutionary theory claims with any degree of honesty in any respected peer reviewed scientific journal. 13 years. The very epitome of a coward.

And you asked him how old he thought the earth was didn't you ? And he didn't have the guts to reply openly. Coward again.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1933 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2020 4:30 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1937 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2020 5:48 PM vimesey has not yet responded
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7956
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1937 of 1960 (879811)
07-22-2020 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1936 by vimesey
07-22-2020 5:23 PM


It's odd isn't it?

Evolution denying has become a thing like holocaust denial and antivax. That's all mad enough but I really don't get religion denying. That's supposed to be against everything they're supposed to believe.

I suppose they find a way to justify it to themselves but only them and their god knows how.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1936 by vimesey, posted 07-22-2020 5:23 PM vimesey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1940 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 6:27 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1938 of 1960 (879813)
07-22-2020 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1935 by Kleinman
07-22-2020 5:22 PM


Re: TOE is religion in schools
Kleinman writes:

So this topic is only about teaching 19th century concepts about evolution?

Evidently you claim that it is. I see no major problem with the school system in regards to their teaching of biological,sociological,anthropological and mathematical concepts. The topic was more focused on what brand of sacred studies or religious studies should be added to the curriculum.
Kleinman writes:

Don't you think that biology students should be taught how bacteria evolve resistance to drugs and why cancer treatments fail? Or do you think that biology students only need to be indoctrinated with the notion that fish are their distant relatives? I think this upsets you because you are one of those mathematically incompetent fish-to-mammals aficionados.

You really like to push that point that *we* all are mathematically incompetent, don't you? The facts which I see are that
1) Your view is a minority view pushed by extremists. I see that students are taught quite well in our system. And by the way, how did *you* learn your math and how did *you* learn about drug resistance and better cancer treatments? My basic gripe with you is that you are taking this topic in directions it need not go.
Kleinman writes:

I've talked to many biologists and biology students over the years and not one could explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments.

OK lets assume that they knew what you know. For the bloody sake of argument. What now will happen in the field of study? To me, all that I see is a bunch of students who think like you do. And i'm not sure that would be any better for the teaching profession than what they currently have. OK. We are done with your rabbit trail. Don't rehash your arguments again. This topic *will* remain on course.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1935 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 5:22 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1941 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 6:46 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 5 days)
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1939 of 1960 (879814)
07-22-2020 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1936 by vimesey
07-22-2020 5:23 PM


vimesey writes:

He's been banging the same (very small) drum in informal websites like these for 13 years at least. And in all that time, he's not had the guts to publish his anti-evolutionary theory claims with any degree of honesty in any respected peer reviewed scientific journal. 13 years. The very epitome of a coward.


I publish my papers in journals where they understand mathematics. That doesn't include the fossil tea-leaf reading journals and Mad magazine. But if any of your "scientific" journals published a paper explaining the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments, why don't you point us to those links? You won't.
vimesey writes:

And you asked him how old he thought the earth was didn't you ? And he didn't have the guts to reply openly. Coward again.


I leave the speculation to those who are experts on this, the fish-to-mammals aficionados.

Hey Phat, is the age of the earth question on topic? How about the shape of the earth?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1936 by vimesey, posted 07-22-2020 5:23 PM vimesey has not yet responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 5 days)
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1940 of 1960 (879815)
07-22-2020 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1937 by Tangle
07-22-2020 5:48 PM


Tangle writes:

It's odd isn't it?
Evolution denying has become a thing like holocaust denial and antivax. That's all mad enough but I really don't get religion denying. That's supposed to be against everything they're supposed to believe.


Who's denying evolution? Aside from Taq giving us the 3e9 number of replications for a particular mutation to occur, I'm the only one on this forum giving any correct mathematics. Well, maybe AZPaul3 thinks that some number between 1 and indeterminant is his idea of mathematics.
Tangle writes:

I suppose they find a way to justify it to themselves but only them and their god knows how.


I can't justify it to you, you don't have the mathematical and scientific skills to understand the justification. You should take a course in introductory probability theory, you would have a much better understanding of this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1937 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2020 5:48 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1942 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2020 3:18 AM Kleinman has responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 5 days)
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1941 of 1960 (879816)
07-22-2020 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1938 by Phat
07-22-2020 6:09 PM


Re: TOE is religion in schools
Kleinman writes:

So this topic is only about teaching 19th century concepts about evolution?

Phat writes:

Evidently you claim that it is. I see no major problem with the school system in regards to their teaching of biological,sociological,anthropological and mathematical concepts. The topic was more focused on what brand of sacred studies or religious studies should be added to the curriculum.


From Message 1
extent writes:

How can we teach both evolution and religion in school when they seemingly conflict so much with one another?


What's more sacred than the truth? Is it true that fish are our distant relatives? If so, how did this happen?
Kleinman writes:

Don't you think that biology students should be taught how bacteria evolve resistance to drugs and why cancer treatments fail? Or do you think that biology students only need to be indoctrinated with the notion that fish are their distant relatives? I think this upsets you because you are one of those mathematically incompetent fish-to-mammals aficionados.

Phat writes:

You really like to push that point that *we* all are mathematically incompetent, don't you? The facts which I see are that
1) Your view is a minority view pushed by extremists. I see that students are taught quite well in our system. And by the way, how did *you* learn your math and how did *you* learn about drug resistance and better cancer treatments? My basic gripe with you is that you are taking this topic in directions it need not go.


So you think an incorrect explanation of the physics and mathematics of evolution is the correct way to go?
Kleinman writes:

I've talked to many biologists and biology students over the years and not one could explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments.

Phat writes:

OK lets assume that they knew what you know. For the bloody sake of argument. What now will happen in the field of study? To me, all that I see is a bunch of students who think like you do. And i'm not sure that would be any better for the teaching profession than what they currently have. OK. We are done with your rabbit trail. Don't rehash your arguments again. This topic *will* remain on course.


What they will know is the correct physics and mathematics of evolution. And you think that stamping their feet and saying that the theory of evolution is true is not rehashing their argument? It isn't even an argument, they can't even explain the simplest evolutionary experiments. And sometimes the majority is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1938 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 6:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1943 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 9:59 AM Kleinman has responded
 Message 1960 by FLRW, posted 07-30-2020 4:09 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7956
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 1942 of 1960 (879819)
07-23-2020 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1940 by Kleinman
07-22-2020 6:27 PM


kleinman writes:

Who's denying evolution?

That would be you kleinman, you're a young earth creationist.

I can't justify it to you, you don't have the mathematical and scientific skills to understand the justification.

I'm not interested in your mathematics, my comment had nothing to do with your mathematics. Sometimes normal people talk of other subjects. I was wondering how you reconcile denying your beliefs whilst being a Christian. It's another version of lying for Jesus.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1940 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 6:27 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1944 by Kleinman, posted 07-23-2020 12:30 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18799
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 1943 of 1960 (879824)
07-23-2020 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1941 by Kleinman
07-22-2020 6:46 PM


Re: TOE is religion in schools
Kleinman writes:

Is it true that fish are our distant relatives? If so, how did this happen?


You seem to think that's what's being taught in schools. If you've been to school, you ought to know.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1941 by Kleinman, posted 07-22-2020 6:46 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1945 by Kleinman, posted 07-23-2020 12:31 PM ringo has responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 5 days)
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1944 of 1960 (879828)
07-23-2020 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1942 by Tangle
07-23-2020 3:18 AM


Kleinman writes:

Who's denying evolution?

Tangle writes:

That would be you kleinman, you're a young earth creationist.


Other than Taq who correctly computed the number of replications required for a beneficial mutation to occur (3e9), I'm the only one on this forum who has given a correct explanation of the mathematics of evolution. And what does the age of the earth have to do with evolution? Other than the association that fish-to-mammals make with their dogma, the age of the earth has nothing to do with the physics and mathematics of evolution (which you have admitted you don't understand). In addition, I have never made a statement about the age of the earth. The reason I haven't is that I don't know.
Kleinman writes:

I can't justify it to you, you don't have the mathematical and scientific skills to understand the justification.

Tangle writes:

I'm not interested in your mathematics, my comment had nothing to do with your mathematics. Sometimes normal people talk of other subjects. I was wondering how you reconcile denying your beliefs whilst being a Christian. It's another version of lying for Jesus.


Your mind reading skills are no better than your mathematical skills. You could do something about your incompetence in mathematics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1942 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2020 3:18 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1948 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2020 2:37 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 5 days)
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1945 of 1960 (879829)
07-23-2020 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1943 by ringo
07-23-2020 9:59 AM


Re: TOE is religion in schools
Kleinman writes:

Is it true that fish are our distant relatives? If so, how did this happen?

ringo writes:

You seem to think that's what's being taught in schools. If you've been to school, you ought to know.


I've spent plenty of years in school and that's what was taught at that time. With all the social promotions, need for remedial courses in colleges, kids leaving college with huge debts and unable to find jobs, who knows what is being taught now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1943 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 9:59 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1946 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 12:49 PM Kleinman has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18799
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1946 of 1960 (879831)
07-23-2020 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1945 by Kleinman
07-23-2020 12:31 PM


Re: TOE is religion in schools
Kleinman writes:

I've spent plenty of years in school and that's what was taught at that time.


Then you shouldn't need to ask us, "how did this happen?"

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1945 by Kleinman, posted 07-23-2020 12:31 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1947 by Kleinman, posted 07-23-2020 1:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 5 days)
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1947 of 1960 (879836)
07-23-2020 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1946 by ringo
07-23-2020 12:49 PM


Re: TOE is religion in schools
Kleinman writes:

I've spent plenty of years in school and that's what was taught at that time.

ringo writes:

Then you shouldn't need to ask us, "how did this happen?"


Why not? None of the fish-to-mammals aficionados explained it then other than they said it takes a long, long time. And your explanation is no better. They also didn't explain how drug resistance evolves or why cancer treatments fail. They and you actually don't explain anything about evolution. Is that what you think should be taught about evolution is schools?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1946 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 12:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7956
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 1948 of 1960 (879839)
07-23-2020 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1944 by Kleinman
07-23-2020 12:30 PM


kleinman writes:

Your mind reading skills are no better than your mathematical skills.

I no longer need to guess, you've already admitted it. Took a while and it slipped out sideways but oh, yes, you're just another warped Christian creationist pretending that you know the mysteries of creation.

We get a few types here, the indoctrinated, those that god talks to and your type, the nutter that thinks they know things that the world of science does not know and is usually writing a book or publishing a paper that will change the world; but never do. It's surprising how many of the sciency types are so loathe to expose their beliefs but always do in the end. It's dishonest but that doesn't seem to matter.

Of course if I HAVE got it entirely wrong, you can just put us all right.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1944 by Kleinman, posted 07-23-2020 12:30 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1950 by dad, posted 07-23-2020 4:43 PM Tangle has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 658
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1949 of 1960 (879843)
07-23-2020 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1947 by Kleinman
07-23-2020 1:35 PM


Re: TOE is religion in schools
You write
quote:
They also didn't explain how drug resistance evolves
A great deal is known about how drug resistance evolves. For example, here is an article about why drug resistance evolves much more readily than vaccine resistance:
quote:
Why does drug resistance readily evolve but vaccine resistance does not?

David A. Kennedy and Andrew F. Read
Center for Infectious Disease Dynamics, Departments of Biology and Entomology, The Pennsylvania State
University, University Park, PA, USA
DAK, 0000-0003-0820-115X; AFR, 0000-0001-7604-7903
Why is drug resistance common and vaccine resistance rare? Drugs and vaccines both impose substantial pressure on pathogen populations to evolve resistance and indeed, drug resistance typically emerges soon after the introduction of a drug. But vaccine resistance has only rarely emerged. Using well-established principles of population genetics and evolutionary ecology, we argue that two key differences between vaccines and drugs explain why vaccines have so far proved more robust against evolution than drugs. First, vaccines tend to work prophylactically while drugs tend to work therapeutically. Second, vaccines tend to induce immune responses against multiple targets on a pathogen while drugs tend to target very few. Consequently, pathogen populations generate less variation for vaccine resistance than they do for drug resistance, and selection has fewer opportunities to act on that variation. When vaccine resistance has evolved, these generalities have been violated. With careful forethought, it may be possible to identify vaccines at risk of failure even before they are introduced.

1. Introduction
Pathogen evolution impacts the efficacy of vaccines and antimicrobial drugs (e.g. antibiotics, antivirals, antimalarials) very differently (figure 1). After a new drug is introduced, drug resistance can rapidly evolve, leading to treatment failures [12]. For instance, most Staphylococcus aureus isolates in British hospitals were resistant to penicillin just 6 years after the introduction of the drug [13]. Similar evolutionary trajectories have been observed for the vast majority of drugs [14] and today many drugs are clinically useless against particular pathogens [15]. The problem has become so acute that drug resistance is viewed as one of the great challenges of our age, ranking alongside climate change and surpassing terrorism [16]. By striking contrast, vaccines generally provide sustained disease control. Most human vaccines have continued to provide protection since their introduction decades or even centuries ago (figure 1). For example, smallpox was eradicated because no virus strains capable of transmitting between vaccinated individuals ever emerged [17]. Indeed, the evolution of vaccine resistance is so rare that vaccines are now considered a leading solution to the drug resistance problem [11,18]. Yet drugs and vaccines both profoundly suppress pathogen fitness and so both should generate tremendous evolutionary pressure for resistance (defined here as a phenotype conferring increased pathogen replication or survival in treated hosts). Why then does pathogen evolution regularly undermine drug efficacy but rarely undermine vaccine efficacy (figure 1)? Here we propose that well known principles of resistance management explain why vaccine resistance rarely evolves. Note that we restrict our discussion to evolutionary changes that result either from mutation or from amplification of extremely rare variants (those maintained by mutation-selection balance). This focus excludes cases of ‘common-variant serotype replacement’ in which strains of a pathogen that were previously observed

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/...nly%20rarely%20emerged. ...



This message is a reply to:
 Message 1947 by Kleinman, posted 07-23-2020 1:35 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 337
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1950 of 1960 (879849)
07-23-2020 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1948 by Tangle
07-23-2020 2:37 PM


Always good talking as if you have won or have something to say after someone gets banned eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1948 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2020 2:37 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1952 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2020 5:05 PM dad has responded

  
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