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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6083
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 1966 of 2024 (889235)
11-11-2021 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1965 by Phat
11-11-2021 6:03 PM


Re: Response to Religious BS
Any student of history knows the vile bloody story of religion. Religious apologists try to justify the cruelty that religion has done to this species by some appeal to the personal comfort felt by some zombies that have already had their brains eaten by the priests.

The millions of humans whose lives were horrifically, painfully, cut short by the evil that is religion would disagree with you. The poison is already loose. Has been for millennia. The task now is to stop it.

The peanut gallery need to know the reality. Religion is ethically, morally, intellectually evil and needs to die.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1965 by Phat, posted 11-11-2021 6:03 PM Phat has responded

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Phat
Member
Posts: 15709
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1967 of 2024 (889237)
11-11-2021 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1966 by AZPaul3
11-11-2021 6:32 PM


Re: Response to Religious BS
First of all its a lie that the implication that all ir most priests or pastors are harmful.
Second of all it is far from conclusive that God is a myth...as you will someday rediscover.
Third of all censoring freedom of ideas is manipulative and authoritarian!

Let people have the access and freedom to decide for themselves.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


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 Message 1966 by AZPaul3, posted 11-11-2021 6:32 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2622
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 1968 of 2024 (889238)
11-11-2021 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1967 by Phat
11-11-2021 7:30 PM


Re: Response to Religious BS
Second of all it is far from conclusive that God is a myth...as you will someday rediscover.

And yet in the whole fucking history of this planet with billions of people, not one single person has every presented even one single fucking shred of evidence for your or any other gods. They are the imaginary delusions of stupid, stupid fucking idiots!


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1967 by Phat, posted 11-11-2021 7:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 740
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 1969 of 2024 (889240)
11-11-2021 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1967 by Phat
11-11-2021 7:30 PM


Re: Response to Religious BS
Yeah, just take a gander at this and try and defend it.

Edited by kjsimons, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1967 by Phat, posted 11-11-2021 7:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33496
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1970 of 2024 (889241)
11-11-2021 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1967 by Phat
11-11-2021 7:30 PM


Re: Response to Religious BS
Phat writes:

Third of all censoring freedom of ideas is manipulative and authoritarian!

Fortunately, no one here is even trying to censor freedom of ideas. The apologists, Carny Barkers and TV Evangelists are allowed to spout their silly spiel; churches are allowed to open their doors and pass the plates; religion is given special tax and zoning status and exempt from behaving like model citizenry. It's allowed to cause traffic jams and require police to manage traffic to pack and empty the pews.

Yet unfortunately there is still reality.

There is overwhelming evidence that the God marketed by much of Christianity is absolutely totally irrelevant, ineffective, and has no connection with the creations or reality itself. It may be like the God of Genesis 1, a creator that simply is apart and aloof with no interaction with what is created but overwhelming evidence that something like the God of Genesis 2&3 simply doesn't exist.

If there is NO evidence of any supernatural interaction with anything material, it simply doesn't matter whether it exists or is a figment of the imagination.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1967 by Phat, posted 11-11-2021 7:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1971 by Phat, posted 11-12-2021 12:31 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15709
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1971 of 2024 (889242)
11-12-2021 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1970 by jar
11-11-2021 9:25 PM


Re: Response to Religious BS
jar writes:

If there is NO evidence of any supernatural interaction with anything material, it simply doesn't matter whether it exists or is a figment of the imagination.

So with most all of you, objective evidence is required before it matters. Got it.

Edited by Phat, : Spelling


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1970 by jar, posted 11-11-2021 9:25 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33496
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1972 of 2024 (889244)
11-12-2021 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1971 by Phat
11-12-2021 12:31 AM


Re: Response to Religious BS
Phat writes:

So with most all of. You, objective evidence is required before it matters. Got it.

Phat, if you claim to have hit the target you really need to show the holes.

It's fine to believe that you are a marksman or were abducted by UFO's or that there is a troll under the bridge.

The problem is when you confuse and conflate belief with knowledge.

It's not really that difficult and we've been down that garden path many times.

It really doesn't matter whether the troll really lives under the bridge if no one has ever seen the troll under the bridge and there is no scat to show that the troll was once there.

That's the way reality works. To claim you are a marksman you have to provide and get certified the holes in the paper.


My Website: My Website

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ringo
Member
Posts: 19302
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 1973 of 2024 (889248)
11-12-2021 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1967 by Phat
11-11-2021 7:30 PM


Re: Response to Religious BS
Phat writes:

First of all its a lie that the implication that all ir most priests or pastors are harmful.


How many priests or pastors have to be thieves or child molesters before YOU begin to wonder about their "communion" with God?

Phat writes:

Second of all it is far from conclusive that God is a myth...


On the contrary, you have reached the conclusion yourself that Zeus is a myth. Many of us reject your God for the same reasons that you reject Zeus. That seems pretty darn close to conclusive.

Phat writes:

Third of all censoring freedom of ideas is manipulative and authoritarian!


Well, YOU guys are the ones who advocate censoring every other religion but your own. Do you advocate Muslim prayers in school? Do you invite Zoroastrians to preach in your church?

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1967 by Phat, posted 11-11-2021 7:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1974 by jar, posted 11-12-2021 11:29 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1976 by Phat, posted 11-12-2021 10:09 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33496
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1974 of 2024 (889250)
11-12-2021 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1973 by ringo
11-12-2021 11:20 AM


Re: Response to Religious BS
ringo writes:

Do you invite Zoroastrians to preach in your church?

They can but only in the basement with the lights off.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1973 by ringo, posted 11-12-2021 11:20 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2622
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 1975 of 2024 (889251)
11-12-2021 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1971 by Phat
11-12-2021 12:31 AM


Re: Response to Religious BS
phat writes:

jar writes:

If there is NO evidence of any supernatural interaction with anything material, it simply doesn't matter whether it exists or is a figment of the imagination.

So with most all of you, objective evidence is required before it matters. Got it.

I bet you don't "Got it".


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1971 by Phat, posted 11-12-2021 12:31 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15709
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1976 of 2024 (889257)
11-12-2021 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1973 by ringo
11-12-2021 11:20 AM


Re: Response to Religious BS
We may have chosen incorrectly. Only after we all die may we ever know. The difference between our certainty that our God is real vs all of the other choices is that we believe that truth is not relative nor are all God choices dynamically equivalent. The idea that truth is relative we reject. The idea that Zeus or Odin is as likely as Jesus we also reject.

Look, you know my human foibles and bad traits. I need not explain why on earth God might choose me but suffice it to say its not my good works thatvcount.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1973 by ringo, posted 11-12-2021 11:20 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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EWolf
Member
Posts: 10
From: Lehigh Acres, Fl
Joined: 11-10-2021


Message 1977 of 2024 (889258)
11-12-2021 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1962 by PaulK
11-11-2021 12:58 AM


Hello Paulk,

Thank you for your replay. I hope you will find the following answers helpful for your quotes below.



Quote:
More importantly the question is whether sectarian dogma should be presented as fact in schools - when the evidence is greatly against it,

I'm speaking of truth in its purity, not sectarian dogma. Does one have to force his religion in order to act it? Have I not previously said that all decisions and actions are based on ones religion whatsoever it may be, thus making it impossible to act apart from it? Even the person that claims to have no religion lives by his religion of "no religion."



Quote:
How should we react to people who reject science while claiming to be "scientists"? .And the dishonesty noted among creationists hardly helps.

Does the attainment and support of scientific knowledge that supports Biblical truth disqualify the scientist that acquired it to the point that he should be counted as a quack? Should the knowledge gained be counted as sectarian dogma?



As for my question, "Why do many teachers tend to prefer to teach evolution in the absence of Biblical truth?",

You answered, "Because they prefer to teach the truth over false sectarian dogma."



Does truth fear falsehood or is it the other way around? Truth has no problem when presented beside the falsehood that it exposes.



Quote:
That's an example of creationist dishonesty - perhaps not on your part, you may well have been deceived yourself. Nevertheless it is a fact that honest science overwhelmingly supports evolution,


Would you please inform me of a scientific or a mathematical law that supports evolution? It only takes one law to disprove it.

As for which is the truthful and which is the deceiving side, whether that which promotes evolution as science or that which supports the Bible, are we not more than sufficiently equipped to discern? We travel life's journey only once.



Quote:
There's whole issue of religious freedom - which rules out the theocratic tyranny wanted by "Biblical Christian religion" (which is not Biblical nor very Christian). And then there's the very bad behaviour of those promoting it which rather contradicts the idea that their religion is the "basis of good behaviour". If it were its followers should be notably better behaved than most, rather than notably worse.

Although true that mishandling of Biblical truth abounds, does that excuse us to despise that which is genuine? That would only make us vulnerable to be drawn deeper into error. Shouldn't we beware of the possibility that scientific knowledge and its authority may also be corrupted to be used as a weapon to promote Godless tyranny?



As for my statement, "Was it not the gradual, ongoing removal of the Biblical religious standard from our culture that accelerated the increasing rise and overflow of the chaos we see around us today?",

you answered, "No."



OK. Don't we both agree that sin is the cause of the chaos I stated above? But what other than Biblical truth should we depend on for controlling sin? Please?



Quote:
The Founding Fathers of America gave the freedom you want to take away. In part because of the abuses of the Puritans. Look up the Boston Martyrs. Look up the history of Maryland. The Founders ruled out religious tests for office. The Founders gave America the First Amendment - and the religious freedom there is the basis for keeping sectarian dogma out of schools. And how are you forbidden from "living the standard"? Think about that.

The first amendment protects the free exercise of good religion based on good conscience against governmentally imposed dogma that would compromise it. Please note the terms, "free exercise." Should the free exercise of good action based on good conscience be prohibited? But why do we have unbiblical humanistic dogma forced on us especially in our schools by our government that violates the first amendment right to abide by the Biblical mandate? Should we be led to believe that the Biblical mandate is bad so that unbiblical behavior may appear and thus promoted as good?


ELD

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 1982 by Percy, posted 11-13-2021 10:46 AM EWolf has responded
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EWolf
Member
Posts: 10
From: Lehigh Acres, Fl
Joined: 11-10-2021


Message 1978 of 2024 (889259)
11-12-2021 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1963 by Tangle
11-11-2021 4:38 AM


Hello Tangle,


You stated,
"Biblical creationism has no place being taught in a science class because it isn't science but it could be included - in all its many forms - in the module discussing the various creation myths."

Have you considered these statements made by Isaac Newton and Johann Kepler?

Newton?
"I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily."

“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”

Johann Kepler said he was “thinking God’s thoughts after Him.” when once asked what he was doing in his scientific work.

Scientific and Biblical truth go hand in hand. Where does any truth including that which is scientific come from but from God? Without conscience governed by Biblical truth, what would stop a scientist from performing destructive experiments on live humans?


ELD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1963 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2021 4:38 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1979 by vimesey, posted 11-12-2021 11:14 PM EWolf has responded
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 8.2


(4)
Message 1979 of 2024 (889260)
11-12-2021 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1978 by EWolf
11-12-2021 10:28 PM


Without conscience governed by Biblical truth, what would stop a scientist from performing destructive experiments on live humans?

Oh that one's easy. It's called common human decency. For example, I'm an atheist and I wouldn't dream of inflicting cruelty on a fellow human being.

In contrast, we have numerous examples of Protestants and Catholics burning each other alive throughout the centuries.

You get good humans and vile humans across the world, regardless of the flavour of their religious beliefs or lack of them. To believe your particular sect has cornered the market in decency and morality is palpable bollocks.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1978 by EWolf, posted 11-12-2021 10:28 PM EWolf has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17033
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 1980 of 2024 (889262)
11-13-2021 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1977 by EWolf
11-12-2021 10:16 PM


quote:
I'm speaking of truth in its purity, not sectarian dogma.

So you absolutely do not want creationism taught in science classes. Which is odd, given all the references to creationism in your post.

Creationism is a sectarian dogma - one that is rejected by many Christians. Indeed you seem to be referring to Young Earth Creationism which is rejected by even more Christians.

quote:
Does one have to force his religion in order to act it?

I don’t think so but I certainly got the impression that you did. How else would a ban on teaching creationism in science classes prevent you from following your religion?

quote:
Have I not previously said that all decisions and actions are based on ones religion whatsoever it may be, thus making it impossible to act apart from it? Even the person that claims to have no religion lives by his religion of "no religion."

I’ll note that “no religion” is obviously not a religion.
More importantly you never connected the original assertion to any point.

quote:
Does the attainment and support of scientific knowledge that supports Biblical truth disqualify the scientist that acquired it to the point that he should be counted as a quack? Should the knowledge gained be counted as sectarian dogma?

I’m not aware of any significant scientific knowledge that supports creationism. I am aware of a vast collection of apologetics for sectarian dogma - apologetics that are often less than honest. (But then religious apologetics are often less than fully honest).

quote:
Does truth fear falsehood or is it the other way around? Truth has no problem when presented beside the falsehood that it exposes

Regardless of the question of “fear” there is the point that it is much quicker and easier to make a false assertion than it is to refute it. Classroom time is limited. Using it to promote the views of a sect - and then taking time to refute those claims - would seem a poor use of it. The more so since all sects would claim the right to have their views presented - imagine having to discuss the Book of Mormon when dealing with pre-Colombian history!

quote:
Would you please inform me of a scientific or a mathematical law that supports evolution? It only takes one law to disprove it.

You really don’t know much about science, do you? Though I put to you the Law of Faunal Succession as relevant.

quote:
As for which is the truthful and which is the deceiving side, whether that which promotes evolution as science or that which supports the Bible, are we not more than sufficiently equipped to discern? We travel life's journey only once.

I certainly am. Indeed Creationism is not “supporting the Bible” - at best they are supporting a dubious view of the Bible which often results in distorting and misrepresenting Scripture.

quote:
Although true that mishandling of Biblical truth abounds, does that excuse us to despise that which is genuine?

I would count Creationism as mishandling whatever truth there is in the Bible. Indeed the idea that the truth is to be found by taking myths literally seems a quite clear example.

quote:
Shouldn't we beware of the possibility that scientific knowledge and its authority may also be corrupted to be used as a weapon to promote Godless tyranny?

The mere existence of a possibility is hardly a counter-balance to a known threat. The people who want theocratic tyranny are here and they are active. Indeed the whole movement to restore prayer in schools is a part of it.

quote:
OK. Don't we both agree that sin is the cause of the chaos I stated above? But what other than Biblical truth should we depend on for controlling sin? Please?

I hardly think that forcing your religion on children is a means of ‘controlling sin”. And as for chaos wouldn’t the Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921 be a clear example? Did prayer in school stop that?

quote:
The first amendment protects the free exercise of good religion based on good conscience against governmentally imposed dogma that would compromise it. Please note the terms, "free exercise." Should the free exercise of good action based on good conscience be prohibited?

That is a very selective reading of the First Amendment. You omit the fact that it forbids government support for religion. Teachers - as government employees - therefore cannot use their position to advance their religion. Eg by wasting time in science class teaching sectarian dogmas like creationism instead of science. If that is the “free exercise” you have in mind then it is quite obvious that it is forbidden - and rightly so.

I also note that free exercise is not a carte blanche. Religious justification only goes so far when it comes to actions,

quote:
But why do we have unbiblical humanistic dogma forced on us especially in our schools by our government that violates the first amendment right to abide by the Biblical mandate?

First science belongs in science classes. Your sectarian dogma does not. Second, the First Amendment does not grant the right to use government positions to promote your religion - and I very much doubt you would be happy if a teacher used their position to promote Islam or Hinduism. Or even if a teacher made Christian arguments against creationism in a science class.

quote:
Should we be led to believe that the Biblical mandate is bad so that unbiblical behavior may appear and thus promoted as good

I would not count creationism as good religion. If the “right” claimed would only be granted to Creationists and not to the followers of other religions (as I am sure is intended) the claim is not made in good conscience. “Unbiblical behaviour” - if that means teaching the curriculum honestly and professionally - seems obviously good in comparison.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1977 by EWolf, posted 11-12-2021 10:16 PM EWolf has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1986 by EWolf, posted 11-13-2021 10:40 PM PaulK has responded

  
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