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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
EWolf
Member
Posts: 13
From: Lehigh Acres, Fl
Joined: 11-10-2021


Message 2026 of 2041 (889637)
12-09-2021 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2012 by Percy
11-21-2021 11:24 AM


Hello Percy,

Because there's conflict between the sights I found and shared and those you found and shared about teenage pregnancies, I will give you the benefit of the doubt rather than to argue even though I still trust those on the sights I gave. Yes, it's true that prayer is permitted especially in school as in the case of those praying around the flag pole.

However, that does not negate Biblical scripture (which I yet boldly speak for) that sternly warns against offending the "little ones (Matthew 18:6)" by keeping “religion” (Jesus, that is) away from our children in Education or anywhere. Such is part of Karl Marx’s vision for the coming generation. Religious truth is part of the whole that should never be left out. You probably by now read my last post to Paulk where I stated that I do not buy any of your or his claims against God and the Bible because your whole life and heart do not appear consistent with them.

EWolf writes:

The free exercise and expression of Biblical religion is not a forced, inappropriate teaching of its doctrine, but freedom to exercise its good fruit.


quote:
It is indeed wonderful that Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Jews are all free to exercise Biblical religion.

Of course Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Jews are free to exercise Biblical religion! That fact that unbiblical practices such as “honor” killings, the "untouchable" status of Hindus, and female circulation are prohibited here in America because of Christian based law makes them even more free here. .

Ewolf writes:

Is God murderous when He judges societies including its children,..


quote:
Uh, yeah! I guess you think being God makes it okay to commit atrocities.

Has scripture not clearly shown God’s reason for judging cultures? Have you forgotten God's mercy to the repentant city as shown in the book of Jonah?

Isn’t there a difference between murder and execution for crime? God judged the cultures and the people because the people saturated their culture only with what God is against and had no intention to repent despite the fact that God gave them much time. Look at the declining state of our society and those around the would today. Judgment has not yet arrived only because it is not yet time. But there’s still time for repentance for all.

”EWolf” writes:

But when a person asking for the proof is asked will he believe God if proof is given to his satisfaction, his answer is generally "no." Is it really scientific proof that he wants?


quote:
But the answer is not, "Generally 'no'." You're just making that up. You've been accepting lies as truth for so long that you believe you have proof in your book.

I’m speaking what I have seen many times.

”EWolf” writes:

There's no such thing as "faith versus science."


quote:
We've said that many times, including to you in this thread. Faith deals with the spiritual and means having no evidence but believing anyway, while science deals with the real world and requires evidence, explication, replication, consensus.

But faith deals with the natural also. Isn't the word, “faith” synonymous with the word "trust?" A merchant cannot survive without the faith (trust) of his customers. Even the above claims you made about science require faith (trust) in those involved do they not?

On the spiritual side, spiritual birth brings the natural man into realization and fellowship with the spirit of God. Isn’t fellowship far beyond evidence? It is as easy to have faith (trust) in God as it is in your favorite merchant. Genuine faith is not blind.

The phrase, “not seen” as spoken in Hebrews 11:1 is the description of the state of God as seen in cultures alienated from God. As in the case of the people of Mars Hill (Acts 17:22-34), people of darkened cultures need to trust and be made familiar with vital truth unseen in the culture.

quote:
You're just going down the list of long ago debunked arguments one by one. The argument that you have to see something or it didn't happen is really brilliant. When you come home to a broken living room window and a baseball on the rug do you say, "There's no way to know how this window was broken because we didn't see it happen." No, of course you don't, that would be idiotic.

And what about all the work detectives and forensic technicians do? Would you just ignore it. Would you say, "How does one know how his fingerprints got on that gun? Did you see him put them there?"



But eye witness accounts are much more powerful are they not? God Himself witnessed His own work of creation. Speaking about forensic analyses, why is it that the scientists whose findings support the Bible tend to be marginalized? Is truth afraid of truth?

quote:
And yet evangelical Christians are among the most vehement of climate change deniers. They want to be good stewards of the environment because it is God's creation, but they don't believe God's power would permit human destruction of climate and so tend to be on the side of exploitation of resources. They're in favor of use of coal and fossil fuels, and in favor of opening up national parks and pristine wildernesses to economic exploitation.

Aren’t we cautious against the danger doomsday scares that may be used to bring about tyrannical mandates because of the scare? What about the past fear of population explosion and the consequent one-child policy that backfired? Such are the consequences of man’s trust in the word of man supposedly under the authority of science that’s handled as if above the word of God. Does true science demand the marginalization of Bible believers because of such mandates?

Don't we remember the rainbow as God’s promise to Noah that the world will not be again destroyed by water (Genesis 9:13)? With no mention of climate change, the Bible does prophesies coming judgment of which man may escape only by repentance.

Yes, we Christians believe in proper stewardship of the earth and its resources.

quote:
Our lengthy experience is that Christians are big on message and short on Biblical knowledge.

But you know better than to lump all of any group into one bad group. Don't you?

Earl


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2012 by Percy, posted 11-21-2021 11:24 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2027 by nwr, posted 12-09-2021 11:10 PM EWolf has not yet responded
 Message 2031 by Percy, posted 12-11-2021 4:14 PM EWolf has not yet responded
 Message 2032 by dwise1, posted 12-11-2021 4:18 PM EWolf has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5887
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 7.9


(2)
Message 2027 of 2041 (889638)
12-09-2021 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2026 by EWolf
12-09-2021 10:04 PM


However, that does not negate Biblical scripture (which I yet boldly speak for) that sternly warns against offending the "little ones (Matthew 18:6)" by keeping “religion” (Jesus, that is) away from our children in Education or anywhere.

You are reading a lot into that verse, that isn't actually there. Just two verses early, Jesus talks about humility. But here you are making demands, and that does not seem at all humble.

Nobody is preventing parents from introducing their children to religion.

Such is part of Karl Marx’s vision for the coming generation.

Nobody is suggesting that Marx's view of religion be taught in the schools.

That fact that unbiblical practices such as “honor” killings, the "untouchable" status of Hindus, and female circulation are prohibited here in America because of Christian based law makes them even more free here. .

I suggest you do a google search for honor killings in the Bible. You might find that it is not at all unbiblical.

But eye witness accounts are much more powerful are they not?

People may find them more persuasive. However, it is well documented that they are unreliable.

God Himself witnessed His own work of creation.

You at most have hearsay evidence of that.

Aren’t we cautious against the danger doomsday scares that may be used to bring about tyrannical mandates because of the scare?

Those are manufactured scares. Evangelicals manufacture many scares.

What about the past fear of population explosion and the consequent one-child policy that backfired?

The one-child policy was in China. It didn't happen here.

Don't we remember the rainbow as God’s promise to Noah that the world will not be again destroyed by water (Genesis 9:13)?

That has been thoroughly debunked by physics.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2026 by EWolf, posted 12-09-2021 10:04 PM EWolf has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17072
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 2028 of 2041 (889639)
12-10-2021 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2025 by EWolf
12-09-2021 9:32 PM


So the reason you won’t engage in discussion is:
quote:
But Don't discussions give the opportunity to share information to help solve the issue discussed?

Presumably, then, you aren’t interested in the information - or even identifying the real problems. An interesting admission, but hardly a good reason.

quote:
Our wayward nature tends to blind us to God's noon day presence, thus making it necessary that we be informed of Him.

Let us note that that rather implausible assertion still contradicts the Biblical claim. (If it was really true that our nature prevented us from seeing the supposedly obvious it would still be a reasonable excuse).

quote:
Thanks for your admitting that you are not perfect as none of us are. But isn't there a need for us to do something about it? May we go from here?

Well, I don’t want to be worse, and creationists do tend to be worse than average. So I wouldn’t think that joining your religion would be a good thing at all. Maybe you should convert to something better.

quote:
Or is it only according to limited understanding that God is painted badly? Do you think that your views of the Bible and Christian theology are perfectly true even though you admitted that you are imperfect?

I don’t think that my limits are in question here. We don’t need perfection - and it doesn’t seem as if anyone has any better answers.

quote:
But we are concerned more of what the Bible says than what people say

The Bible was written by people - with a number of different viewpoints. So it is an example of “what people say”.

quote:
Are you sure you correctly understood all you were told about God? Are you sure you are not without a full unbiased understanding of what the Bible says about Him?

I’m pretty sure that my understanding is adequate. These aren’t highly complicated things and there doesn’t seem much nuance.

quote:
Should we blame God for man's fallen, corrupting nature?

Yes, we should - if we believe what Christianity says. That’s one of the problems. Why should man have a “fallen corrupting nature”? God supposedly created man so any weaknesses in man would be his responsibility, for a start.

quote:
Where is your heart when reading or hearing what’s said in the Bible? To see God the way we see imperfect man is fatally erroneous.

Well obviously, we can’t excuse God on the grounds that he couldn’t reasonably foresee the consequences of his actions. So you’re right in that respect. But I don’t see how there is anything there that helps you.

quote:
Ones ignorance of his debt does not negate the fact that he owes it.

However we are talking of responses to the claim that there is a debt. Surely you don’t expect me to believe that I owe a debt just because you say so.

quote:
It's unfortunate that many failed to trust the Lord's precious offer of forgiveness and consequently brought unto themselves very great loss.

You say that, but it still looks like an attempted fraud. I’m not going to pay a high price for a supposed “debt” that can’t be reasonably established. Nobody should.

quote:
There are Christians that you may trust.

There are plenty of “Christians” that can’t be trusted. And even the honest ones might be in error or deceived.

quote:
When and where did I say that?

In Message 1995 you stated:

If the Biblical truth revealed to us cannot be trusted as reality then what hope do you and I have for redemption from our fallen nature and the consequent corruption around us?

And in context it certainly appears that you meant that the Biblical myths should be taken as fact. So yes, it does appear that you can’t have faith in God to save you unless the myths are literally true.

quote:
Although admitting yourself imperfect, you yet unquestionably trust your judgment that shared knowledge based on Biblical truth is untruth?

So if I’m imperfect I have to worship men as false Gods? Perhaps you would like to explain that. Your claims to knowledge, like every other human claim, can be and should be examined.

quote:
If that's so then all I shared based on it appears only as foolishness.

This is where discussion comes in. Instead of relying on assertions you could provide support for your claims. Or perhaps you can’t because you haven’t bothered to inform yourself. If that’s so, then you are engaged in foolishness.

quote:
If you really think in your heart that knowledge based on the word of God is untruth, then why aren't you consistent with it in all points of your life even to the point that the commandments not to steal and kill appear as mythical so that you would violate them with no thought? Would you do unto others exactly what you wouldn't want done to you? I’m sure you would not!

Well thank you for that irrational rant. What you say makes no sense at all. Not accepting the Bible as a reliable source of truth hardly means rejecting ideas or claims just because they are in the Bible. There is a huge gap between being 100% right and 100% wrong. Just as there is a difference between your preferred interpretation of the Bible and what the Bible actually says. Probably quite a large difference in places.

quote:
I therefore cannot buy any of your or any of the other guy’s claims that knowledge based on God and His word with all of its wisdom is untrue

So you’ll just accept the word of men without considering even the Bible. That’s what you really mean. It’s fascinating really how little creationists understand the Bible - and how hostile they are to understanding it.

quote:
Neither can I buy any of your other claims against God.

I don’t believe that I made any “claims against God”.

quote:
Do you daily show that as the way you really think? I doubt it

I think I do. Rationally examining claims to determine the truth seems pretty important to me. If your sect doesn’t like that isn’t that an indication that they have a problem?

quote:
For one to think in any way that God and His word are undesirable and to be trashed is to fulfill the prime prerequisite to begin walking in and fulfilling the vision of Karl Marx. Is it not he that said "Religion is the opium of the people?" I’m sure none of you have any intention to go that path

I doubt that you understand the point Marx was making. But there is, of course, a huge difference between rejecting religion and endorsing Marxist views on other matters (indeed aspects of Marxism are quite compatible with Christianity - consider Acts 4:32). Indeed, much of what I have said is simply rejecting your sectarian views rather than Christianity itself,

quote:
I think too highly of you guys to think you are truly against God! Your and the others speeches appear only to be from grudges.

Maybe you should learn to distinguish better between God and men. Learn more of the variety of beliefs in Christianity. And certainly learn more about the Bible. In fact I think you should learn more to understand rather than simply “believe” - after all you can’t really believe something if you don’t understand it.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2025 by EWolf, posted 12-09-2021 9:32 PM EWolf has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2036 by EWolf, posted 12-26-2021 12:18 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1283
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 8.0


(2)
Message 2029 of 2041 (889655)
12-10-2021 5:12 PM


Worst day at the office EVER
According to the Bible, on the fourth day of creation, God created the sun, the moon, the stars and the planets.

According to observed science, there are 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe. And that's not taking into account all the planets which must be orbiting those stars.

You gotta say, that was not a good day at the office.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 2030 of 2041 (889708)
12-11-2021 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2025 by EWolf
12-09-2021 9:32 PM


EWolf writes:

quote:
There are quite a few questions you haven’t answered. But it seems you’d rather talk at us rather than discuss - even though this is a discussion group.

But Don't discussions give the opportunity to share information to help solve the issue discussed?

Yes, of course, but what you're doing is not discussing, which was PaulK's point. You're ignoring the evidence and arguments in people's messages and just launching into more sermons. It isn't just PaulK you're ignoring, it's everyone.

You can continue in this vein if you insist, but if you do then people will eventually cease attempting constructive discussion with you and you'll be faced with the expressions of frustration that you yourself caused. But you won't blame yourself, you'll blame them and their Godless ways.

So let's turn this into a productive discussion, okay? Stop the preaching - we're not your parishioners, and can't begin by asking everyone to just assume the Bible is the literally inerrant Word of God. You have to show it, not just say it.

A good discussion represents an exchange of ideas and evidence. The key word is exchange. It can't just be you talking and us nodding our heads, which is what you seem to want.

quote:
EWolf writes:

Is it possible for anyone to vehemently deny what he was never informed of?


Thanks for the implicit admission that God is not at all obvious - that we need to be told about him. Although it would be rather better if you actually used this assertion to make a relevant point.

Our wayward nature tends to blind us to God's noon day presence, thus making it necessary that we be informed of Him.

Just examining the internal consistency here, you say we're blind to "God's noon day presence" because of our "wayward nature," but since you have the same "wayward nature" you are blind to it, too, right? How were you made aware of "God's noon day presence?" By someone else, right? Who presumably also possessed this "wayward nature" and had to be told by someone else, right? Who presumably also possessed this "wayward nature" and... Well, you get the idea.

So the ultimate source of information about God is...what? The Bible? That was written by men, who as we know have this "wayward nature" that blinds them to "God's noon day presence." But these men were inspired, you say? Who told you they were inspired? Men? Who have this "wayward nature?" Do you see the problem?

Your very serious problem is that you have no actual evidence of God, just blind belief. And you displayed an equally serious problem with simple logic by using an argument that applies to everyone equally (in effect, "Men have been known to err") as if it didn't apply to yourself.

If all mankind has a wayward nature that leads him to err, then that goes for everyone including yourself, not just those who hold views different from yours.

quote:
EWolf writes:

Don’t we all have that inward sense of guilt that tend to make us want to run from the “Police?” (God)


No, we don’t. I don’t claim to be perfect or even more than averagely good, but that’s enough for me.

Thanks for your admitting that you are not perfect as none of us are. But isn't there a need for us to do something about it? May we go from here?

You're thanking someone for admitting they're not perfect? Seriously? You do realize everyone knows perfection isn't possible and that saying you're not perfect is only a figure of speech, don't you? It's not intended to be taken literally.

quote:
EWolf writes:

Is this what leads some to the temptation to conclude that God is the cruelest of all beings and to deny His existence for apparent relief from this crushing weight?

The real reasons are the Bible and Christian theology. The former paints God quite badly in a number of places while the latter often implies it.


Or is it only according to limited understanding that God is painted badly? Do you think that your views of the Bible and Christian theology are perfectly true even though you admitted that you are imperfect?

Do you think your own views of the Bible and Christian theology are perfectly true? If so then please present to us the evidence and argumentation that persuaded you. This is how you and we will resolve our different perspectives, through discussion. And that discussion should focus on evidence and rational argument, not bald claims that you demand be accepted on your say so.

quote:
And if God is all Christians say he is then he knowingly created that situation. Which doesn’t make a lot of sense (not to mention that Calvinists have a quite different take).

But we are concerned more of what the Bible says than what people say.

You're more interested in a book than people?

Are you sure you correctly understood all you were told about God?

Would you be referring to what we were told about God by people of the same wayward nature as ourselves and who are also blinded to God's noon day presence?

Are you sure you are not without a full unbiased understanding of what the Bible says about Him?

This would be the Bible written by men that you're talking about? You're putting the cart before the horse again. First provide evidence and rational argument that what the Bible says on this point is true.

Should we blame God for man's fallen, corrupting nature?

I'd like to challenge the internal consistency of this claim. Are you seriously claiming that a perfect God gave us a "fallen, corrupting nature" and then decided to punish us for it?

About your claim's truth or falsity, why should we accept undemonstrated claims?

Where is your heart when reading or hearing what’s said in the Bible? To see God the way we see imperfect man is fatally erroneous.

Are you aware that you're preaching, or do you do it unconsciously?

There are Christians that you may trust.

Like you?

quote:
And you also said - or at least implied - that you’d abandon your faith in God if the Noah’s Ark myth turned out not to be literally true. That doesn’t make a lot of sense.

When and where did I say that?

You implied that faith in God and his word is not compatible with science, specifically calling out evolution. See your Message 2006.

quote:
Why? You’re hardly the first person to preach untruths at us.

Although admitting yourself imperfect,...

Again, a figure of speech.

...you yet unquestionably trust your judgment that shared knowledge based on Biblical truth is untruth?

What PaulK and the rest of us trust is a method that gives us the best chance of understanding the actual nature of the world around us. That doesn't automatically mean the Bible is untrue. It means it must be subjected to this method of determining what is likely true and what is not.

Some parts of the Bible are obviously true (Jerusalem is a real place). Some parts of the Bible are obviously false (there was a census in the time of Herod that required everyone to return to the town of their ancestors). Some parts lack evidence but could easily be true (Jesus died by crucification). Other parts not only lack evidence but have a great deal of counter-evidence and are fantastical and highly unlikely (the Noachic flood).

If that's so then all I shared based on it appears only as foolishness.

Some of what you've said is foolishness, some isn't. For example, rhetorically asking if anyone has ever witnessed millions of years of evolution is foolishness. Many are convicted of murder with no eyewitnesses, only forensic evidence. I'm sure every defense lawyer facing only forensic evidence argues there were no eyewitnesses, but somehow that rarely persuades a jury looking at fingerprints and DNA analysis and such, even juries filled with evangelicals.

So have you seen God? Next time you do say hi for me.

If you really think in your heart that knowledge based on the word of God is untruth,...

You have yet to demonstrate you are in possession of the Word of God, nor even of evidence that your God exists.

...then why aren't you consistent with it in all points of your life even to the point that the commandments not to steal and kill appear as mythical so that you would violate them with no thought?Would you do unto others exactly what you wouldn't want done to you? I’m sure you would not!

That the ten commandments come from God must be considered a myth until such time as evidence is produced that shows otherwise. That stealing and killing are wrong is held universally regardless of religious belief or lack thereof.

And you're preaching again.

I therefore cannot buy any of your or any of the other guy’s claims that knowledge based on God and His word with all of its wisdom is untrue.

You don't quote PaulK saying this, so I don't know what he said that you're responding to, but it doesn't sound like something PaulK would say. From what I recall of things he's said I think he'd likely believe that something is shown true by evidence. You present no evidence yet make demands that what you say be accepted as true.

Neither can I buy any of your other claims against God. Do you daily show that as the way you really think? I doubt it.

This is as blockheaded as thinking that not believing in God means one is driven to break all the commandments.

For one to think in any way that God and His word are undesirable and to be trashed is to fulfill the prime prerequisite to begin walking in and fulfilling the vision of Karl Marx.

So your reaction to being presented with non-belief in God and with descriptions of the destructive effects of religion in recorded history is to call someone a communist. Good show. God's defender is a maligner. A true God would need no defending by a mere human of wayward nature. What you're actually defending is your own sense of self as a vessel of religious truth. You're not.

Is it not he that said "Religion is the opium of the people?" I’m sure none of you have any intention to go that path!

And what if we do? What names will you call us then?

I think too highly of you guys to think you are truly against God! Your and the others speeches appear only to be from grudges.

One can't really be for or against things that don't exist. None of us are for or against griffins, ghosts, or gods.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2025 by EWolf, posted 12-09-2021 9:32 PM EWolf has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2033 by dwise1, posted 12-11-2021 4:42 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 2031 of 2041 (889718)
12-11-2021 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2026 by EWolf
12-09-2021 10:04 PM


EWolf writes:

Because there's conflict between the sights I found and shared and those you found and shared about teenage pregnancies, I will give you the benefit of the doubt rather than to argue even though I still trust those on the sights I gave.

Not sights. Sites. As in websites.

I don't need you to give me the benefit of the doubt. Your sites were lying and I showed that conclusively. Time to be a big boy and face facts. There's no Santa Clause, there's no Easter Bunny, and there are a lot of liars for Christ out there. Either rebut what I showed, or admit you're wrong and that teenage pregnancy rates have been dropping for decades.

If you're right that there's a connection between prayer and teenage pregnancy rates, that means that one of the results of the Supreme Court ruling on prayer has been a decline in teenage pregnancy rates, the exact opposite of what you claimed. The Supreme Court ruling had a very positive outcome.

Since you only made the one claim, this reduces your list of the bad side effects of the Supreme Court ruling to zero.

Of course, the other possibility is that there's little or no connection between the two.

However, that does not negate Biblical scripture (which I yet boldly speak for) that sternly warns against offending the "little ones (Matthew 18:6)" by keeping “religion” (Jesus, that is) away from our children in Education or anywhere.

You're preaching again.

Such is part of Karl Marx’s vision for the coming generation.

And now you're calling people who disagree with you communists again. You just can't seem to help yourself. No matter how many times you're called on your behavior, you just keep doing it.

Religious truth is part of the whole that should never be left out. You probably by now read my last post to Paulk where I stated that I do not buy any of your or his claims against God and the Bible because your whole life and heart do not appear consistent with them.

Who here is promoting lies and calling people names? That would be you, wouldn't it?

I don't know why you're editing the quote markup. I'm editing it back to be more readable.

The free exercise and expression of Biblical religion is not a forced, inappropriate teaching of its doctrine, but freedom to exercise its good fruit.

It is indeed wonderful that Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Jews are all free to exercise Biblical religion.

Of course Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Jews are free to exercise Biblical religion! That fact that unbiblical practices such as “honor” killings, the "untouchable" status of Hindus, and female circulation are prohibited here in America because of Christian based law makes them even more free here.

You're as oblivious to sarcasm as Marc. You argued for "the free exercise and expression of Biblical religion" in schools while ignoring all other religions. Are you also in favor of the free exercise of Islamic religion in schools? Of Hindu religion? All other religions? Will you allow Muslim children to pray toward Mecca during lunch and then again later in the day?

Is God murderous when He judges societies including its children,..

Uh, yeah! I guess you think being God makes it okay to commit atrocities.

Has scripture not clearly shown God’s reason for judging cultures? Have you forgotten God's mercy to the repentant city as shown in the book of Jonah?

You're avoiding the issue. Do you think being God makes it okay to commit atrocities? Or maybe you think scripture makes it okay for God to commit atrocities? And do you really see God refraining from committing an atrocity as an expression of mercy?

Isn’t there a difference between murder and execution for crime?

So you're a believer in capital punishment then.

God judged the cultures and the people because the people saturated their culture only with what God is against and had no intention to repent despite the fact that God gave them much time.

Hey, he warned them, they had it coming. Great guy!

Look at the declining state of our society and those around the would today.

I'm looking at the declining state of our country at the hands of over politicized evangelicals.

Judgment has not yet arrived only because it is not yet time. But there’s still time for repentance for all.

Thank you, preacher. Can I assume you'll be explaining to us what we have to do to repent?

But when a person asking for the proof is asked will he believe God if proof is given to his satisfaction, his answer is generally "no." Is it really scientific proof that he wants?

But the answer is not, "Generally 'no'." You're just making that up. You've been accepting lies as truth for so long that you believe you have proof in your book.

I’m speaking what I have seen many times.

What you're describing isn't rational, and rationality is the default position of most people who don't believe in God. They accept that for which there is evidence. If you asked them if they would believe God exists if provided evidence, they would say yes. So you're making this up.

Look, preach, you're developing a pretty bad track record for accuracy and honesty. Want to clean it up a bit?

There's no such thing as "faith versus science."

We've said that many times, including to you in this thread. Faith deals with the spiritual and means having no evidence but believing anyway, while science deals with the real world and requires evidence, explication, replication, consensus.

But faith deals with the natural also. Isn't the word, “faith” synonymous with the word "trust?" A merchant cannot survive without the faith (trust) of his customers.

I would say you've gone a fair ways toward destroying any trust people might have had in what you say.

Even the above claims you made about science require faith (trust) in those involved do they not?

Are you nuts? Of course not. When replicating an experiment you usually start by accepting what the paper describing the original experiment states, but if your own results do not match then you start looking for explanations. Perhaps you failed to follow the experimental protocols? Perhaps sources of error crept in? Perhaps there was contamination? You might even repeat the experiment. Once all the sources of a differing results have been explored and none found then no, you do not trust the original results.

But if they do successfully replicate the experiment then the beginning on a consensus might start to form that we've found something likely true about the natural world. If ongoing replication provides additional confirmations of the results then the consensus grows stronger and stronger.

Faith and trust do not really have a place within science. Just as evidence and replication do not really have a place within religion, or at least are not provided one.

On the spiritual side, spiritual birth brings the natural man into realization and fellowship with the spirit of God. Isn’t fellowship far beyond evidence? It is as easy to have faith (trust) in God as it is in your favorite merchant. Genuine faith is not blind.

Sure, preach, sermonize away. You got evidence of God then I'm listening. If all you got is sermons, please take it elsewhere.

The phrase, “not seen” as spoken in Hebrews 11:1 is the description of the state of God as seen in cultures alienated from God. As in the case of the people of Mars Hill (Acts 17:22-34), people of darkened cultures need to trust and be made familiar with vital truth unseen in the culture.

Hallelujah!

You're just going down the list of long ago debunked arguments one by one. The argument that you have to see something or it didn't happen is really brilliant. When you come home to a broken living room window and a baseball on the rug do you say, "There's no way to know how this window was broken because we didn't see it happen." No, of course you don't, that would be idiotic.

And what about all the work detectives and forensic technicians do? Would you just ignore it. Would you say, "How does one know how his fingerprints got on that gun? Did you see him put them there?"

But eye witness accounts are much more powerful are they not?

No, they're not. Eyewitness (one word, not two) accounts are notoriously unreliable. For example, about half of all wrongful convictions are due to mistaken eyewitness testimony. Check out How reliable is eyewitness testimony? Scientists weigh in, for example. There are plenty of sources of information about the unreliability of eyewitness accounts, just do a Google search.

God Himself witnessed His own work of creation.

Did you see God witness His own efforts at creation? No? Then how do you know?

Speaking about forensic analyses, why is it that the scientists whose findings support the Bible tend to be marginalized?

What makes you think they are?

And yet evangelical Christians are among the most vehement of climate change deniers. They want to be good stewards of the environment because it is God's creation, but they don't believe God's power would permit human destruction of climate and so tend to be on the side of exploitation of resources. They're in favor of use of coal and fossil fuels, and in favor of opening up national parks and pristine wildernesses to economic exploitation.

Aren’t we cautious against the danger doomsday scares that may be used to bring about tyrannical mandates because of the scare?

You're using scare tactics right now to turn people away from what science tells us about the impact we're having on the planet. There's no tyranny since any actions we take in the face of climate change will be carried out democratically. You're just creating false fears of tyranny to allow the rape of the environment and our climate to continue. You know what should scare you? You're only 20 feet above sea level and right in hurricane alley.

What about the past fear of population explosion and the consequent one-child policy that backfired?

You're confusing two different things. Overpopulation is a very real threat because the planet's ability to sustain so many people is being exhausted. On the other hand, China's one-child policy was not developed scientifically but was by the Chinese Communist Party in response to fears of overpopulation. Controlling overpopulation isn't really a science. All science can do is measure and predict, for example that the world population will peak at 10.9 billion around 2100. What we do know is that the economically richer a nation the lower the birth rate.

But if you're in favor of burning coal and exploiting pristine wildernesses for economic gain then you're complicit in the rape of our environment.

Does true science demand the marginalization of Bible believers because of such mandates?

Falsely claiming victimhood - good show!

Don't we remember the rainbow as God’s promise to Noah that the world will not be again destroyed by water (Genesis 9:13)? With no mention of climate change, the Bible does prophesies coming judgment of which man may escape only by repentance.

Thanks again, preach. Nice sermon.

Yes, we Christians believe in proper stewardship of the earth and its resources.

Sure you do. That's why when I brought up the environment and climate change that you denigrated science. You didn't address my specific points. Are you in favor of burning coal and exploiting pristine wildernesses for economic gain or not? Your silence is the answer.

You talked about trust earlier. Will you begin behaving in a way any time soon that gives people a sense of trust in what you way?

Our lengthy experience is that Christians are big on message and short on Biblical knowledge.

But you know better than to lump all of any group into one bad group. Don't you?

Statistics show that as a group Christians are poor readers of the Bible, and that is reinforced by our experience here. Some Christians here did seem well read Biblically, but they also tended to have the most extreme interpretations, for instance like you claiming that when God does it genocide is okay.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Replace a pronoun with a real noun for clarity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2026 by EWolf, posted 12-09-2021 10:04 PM EWolf has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4818
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 2032 of 2041 (889719)
12-11-2021 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2026 by EWolf
12-09-2021 10:04 PM


My emphasis added:
Because there's conflict between the sights I found and shared and those you found and shared about teenage pregnancies, ...

Uh, what the hell are you talking about? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Even though it may be against your religion to do so, look it up!

From the Merriam-Webster definitions for sights (including in the singular) -- slightly edited for format (but given your history of when pearls are cast before you I won't put too much effort into that):

quote:
Definition of sight (Entry 1 of 3)
1: something that is seen : SPECTACLE

2a: a thing regarded as worth seeing —usually used in plural
-- the sights of the city

b: something ludicrous or disorderly in appearance
-- you look a sight

3a: chiefly dialectal : a great number or quantity

b: a good deal : LOT
-- a far sight better
-- not by a damn sight

4a: the process, power, or function of seeing
specifically : the physical sense by which light stimuli received by the eye are interpreted by the brain and constructed into a representation of the position, shape, brightness, and usually color of objects in space

b: mental or spiritual perception

c: mental view
specifically : JUDGMENT

5a: the act of looking at or beholding

b: INSPECTION, PERUSAL

c: VIEW, GLIMPSE

d: an observation to determine direction or position (as by a navigator)

6a: a perception of an object by or as if by the eye
-- never lost sight of the objective

b: the range of vision
-- was nowhere in sight

7: presentation of a note or draft to the maker or draftee : DEMAND

8a: a device that aids the eye in aiming or in finding the direction of an object

b: sights plural : ASPIRATION
-- set her sights on a medical career

in sight : at or within a reasonable distance or time

on sight : as soon as seen
-- ordered to shoot on sight

out of sight
-- 1: beyond comparison
-- 2: beyond all expectation or reason
-- 3—used as a generalized expression of approval
sight for sore eyes : one whose appearance or arrival is an occasion for joy or relief

sight verb
sighted; sighting; sights
Definition of sight (Entry 2 of 3)
transitive verb

1: to get or catch sight of
-- several whales were sighted

2: to look at through or as if through a sight
especially : to test for straightness

3: to aim by means of sights

4a: to equip with sights

b: to adjust the sights of

intransitive verb

1: to take aim

2: to look carefully in a particular direction

sight adjective
Definition of sight (Entry 3 of 3)
1: based on recognition or comprehension without previous study
-- sight translation

2: payable on presentation
-- a sight draft


So then which definition of "sights" are you applying? Because none of them make any sense which plugged into what you've written.

If you can find a dictionary that includes another definition for "sights" which does apply, then please provide it and a bibliographic citation of the source.

I started out as a foreign language major so just out of curiosity, what is your original language? It is obviously not English.

 
And you still have not answer the most basic questions your implied offer to; from my Message 2017:

DWise1 writes:

EWolf writes:

... unless any of you may have any more unanswered questions.


Yes, you did still never answer my question. Though I'm sure that it's entirely beyond your ability to answer, since you don't know the answer yourself:

DWise1 writes:

Dunnage writes:

Yes, the student should be made aware of and familiarized with the widespread presence of the evolutionary mindset.

Just what the hell are you talking about? What "evolutionary mindset"? No such thing exists any more than there's an "electronics mindset" or a "muffin method mindset."

All you're doing is repeating a fake bogeyman that was created to scare you. If you truly believe that there is such a thing, then you must present it and your evidence for it, and then be ready to discuss it.

You keep blathering about this "evolution mindset", but you never say what it is supposed to be. Do you even know yourself? I doubt that very much. You are obviously just vomiting the BS lies that creationists keep feeding you, and then you return to eat your own vomit as a dog does.

Which reminds me, you really should try to get around to reading the Bible.

So then, ¡yet again!, just exactly what is this "evolution mindset" you keep blathering about? What is it based on?

Also, just what do you think that evolution is? Do you think that it conflicts with God? (HINT: it does not!) If you think that it does indeed conflict, then explain to us why you think that!

Of course, we need much much more information from you before your yammerings can even begin to make any sense, but your answers to those few preliminary questions are the bare minimum we need.

Of course, you being a creationist and my having had decades of experience with creationists inform me that if you are a typical creationist, then you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

So do try to answer my questions. You might even learn something -- oh yeah, learning things is against your faith.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2026 by EWolf, posted 12-09-2021 10:04 PM EWolf has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4818
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 2033 of 2041 (889721)
12-11-2021 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 2030 by Percy
12-11-2021 1:09 PM


Percy to EWolf writes:

You're ignoring the evidence and arguments in people's messages and just launching into more sermons. It isn't just PaulK you're ignoring, it's everyone.

You can continue in this vein if you insist, but if you do then people will eventually cease attempting constructive discussion with you and you'll be faced with the expressions of frustration that you yourself caused. But you won't blame yourself, you'll blame them and their Godless ways.

But what is his real motivation? What does he think he will accomplish by acting in a manner that appears to be deliberately designed to turn everybody against him and his false religion (as determined by the Matthew 7:20 Test)?

Very often in the past I've asked that question of "what do you think you're trying to accomplish?" and never got a straight answer. But then ex-fundie Ed Babinski reposted a short article which I reposted here on 20 Feb 2020 in Message 442:

DWise1 writes:

IOW, haven't our USA "persecuted and hated Christians" ever considered that the reason why people reacted so negatively to them is because those Christians' constant efforts at persecution and attacking other beliefs (which is the basis of proselytizing) make them very unpleasant to be around? And then to add insult to injury, once they have driven you to hating them for their behavior they insist that it's God that you hate.

So how can that kind of conduct lead to successful proselytizing? A posting from Quora reposted by Ed Babinski on FaceBook last summer says that conversion is not the goal:

quote:

Why do people get angry when I try to share the word of God with them? I only do it because I care about them deeply and don't want them to end up in hell. I feel like some people avoid me because of this. Is there any way to get through to them?

by Doug Robertson, studied at University of Maine
Updated Dec 11 2018


The entire process is not what you think it is.

It is specifically designed to be uncomfortable for the other person because it isn't about converting them to your religion. It is about manipulating you so you can't leave yours.

If this tactic was about converting people it would be considered a horrible failure. It recruits almost no one who isn't already willing to join. Bake sales are more effective recruiting tools.

On the other hand, it is extremely effective at creating a deep tribal feeling among its own members.

The rejection they receive is actually more important than the few people they convert. It causes them to feel a level of discomfort around the people they attempt to talk to. These become the "others". These uncomfortable feelings go away when they come back to their congregation, the "Tribe".

If you take a good look at the process it becomes fairly clear. In most cases, the religious person starts out from their own group, who is encouraging and supportive. They are then sent out into the harsh world where people repeatedly reject them. Mainly because they are trained to be so annoying.

These brave witnesses then return from the cruel world to their congregation where they are treated like returning heroes. They are now safe. They bond as they share their experiences of reaching out to the godless people to bring them the truth. They share the otherness they experience.

Once again they will learn that the only place they are accepted is with the people who think as they do. It isn't safe to leave the group. The world is your enemy, but we love you.

This is a pain reward cycle that is a common brainwashing technique. The participants become more and more reliant on the "Tribe" because they know that "others" reject them.

Mix in some ritualized chanting, possibly a bit of monotonous repetition of instructions, add a dash of fear of judgment by an unseen, but all-powerful entity who loves you if you do as you are told and you get a pretty powerful mix.

Sorry, I have absolutely no wish to participate in someones brainwashing ritual.


This appears to be EWolf's motivation given both his bad behavior and the fact that he has already dropped bits of "you're all so mean to me, I'll just go off in a huff", especially during his little "brushing the dust off his sandals" display (not EWolf's words, but rather Jesus').

 
From your Message 2031:

Percy writes:

Not sights. Sites. As in websites.

That's what he was trying to say? I thought he was trying to say "cites" which is not even a noun but only a verb.

Jesus H! Why can he not just write in English instead of making his scribblings even more indecipherable?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2030 by Percy, posted 12-11-2021 1:09 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2035 by Percy, posted 12-13-2021 9:52 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6215
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


(2)
Message 2034 of 2041 (889722)
12-11-2021 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2025 by EWolf
12-09-2021 9:32 PM


Our wayward nature tends to blind us to God's noon day presence, thus making it necessary that we be informed of Him.

In other words, your god does not exist and people, especially children, must be inculcated, brainwashed, into a false belief.

You can not show us god. You can’t even show his works. You point to nature and declare “The Majik Of God!” without showing any connection. You have no knowledge, you have no facts, evidence, data. All you have is a deeply held belief based upon your all too faulty human emotion.

Since we know with confidence that it doesn’t exist are you sure you correctly understood all you should know about God? Are you sure you are not without a full unbiased understanding of what the universe says about Him? Do you recognize the biblical fiction or have you been irrevocably blinded?

Show us any thing, fact, structure or process that screams that only a god could do this without any viable natural alternative.

Show us your god.

Thanks for your admitting that you are not perfect as none of us are. But isn't there a need for us to do something about it? May we go from here?

Perfection, like your god, does not exist in this universe. From the Pauli Exclusion Principle to the Schrödinger equation this universe draws with imperfect paints on an imperfect canvas. Your god’s perfection, which you cannot show, is nothing more than your own personal heartfelt article of faith. It means nothing in the imperfect reality of this universe.

Ones ignorance of his debt does not negate the fact that he owes it.

Yes, guilty of birth. And the priests are the only ones with the vaccine. How powerfully and financially convenient. What a scam you Christians have built. That is evil.

You and your priests cannot saddle me with your false god’s fake debt. Your christian demon's attempt to poison my mind and enslave my soul has failed.

If you really think in your heart that knowledge based on the word of God is untruth, then why aren't you consistent with it in all points of your life even to the point that the commandments not to steal and kill appear as mythical so that you would violate them with no thought?

Are you really this mentally damaged? Are you so deranged that only the specter of your false god keeps you from being a baby-raping, chainsaw slashing psychopath? Please, for the sake of humanity, stay with your religion. As dangerous as religion is, apparently you’re too damn dangerous without it.

Neither can I buy any of your other claims against God.

What god? Yours? What claims? That it’s fake?

So show us wrong.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2025 by EWolf, posted 12-09-2021 9:32 PM EWolf has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 2035 of 2041 (889745)
12-13-2021 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 2033 by dwise1
12-11-2021 4:42 PM


dwise1 writes:

From your Message 2031:

Percy writes:

Not sights. Sites. As in websites.

That's what he was trying to say? I thought he was trying to say "cites" which is not even a noun but only a verb.

There must be a book out there favored by Christians titled Superiority Complexes for Dummies.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2033 by dwise1, posted 12-11-2021 4:42 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
EWolf
Member
Posts: 13
From: Lehigh Acres, Fl
Joined: 11-10-2021


Message 2036 of 2041 (890119)
12-26-2021 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2028 by PaulK
12-10-2021 1:20 AM


Hi Guys

I have not forgotten you. I ended in the hospital and will be back with you as soon as possible. Merry Belated Christmas!

Earl


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2028 by PaulK, posted 12-10-2021 1:20 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2037 by nwr, posted 12-26-2021 12:23 AM EWolf has not yet responded
 Message 2038 by Percy, posted 12-26-2021 9:59 AM EWolf has not yet responded
 Message 2039 by jar, posted 12-26-2021 10:36 AM EWolf has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5887
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 2037 of 2041 (890120)
12-26-2021 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2036 by EWolf
12-26-2021 12:18 AM


And a merry Christmas to you, too.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2036 by EWolf, posted 12-26-2021 12:18 AM EWolf has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 2038 of 2041 (890123)
12-26-2021 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 2036 by EWolf
12-26-2021 12:18 AM


EWolf writes:

I ended in the hospital...

Does this raise any questions for anyone?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2036 by EWolf, posted 12-26-2021 12:18 AM EWolf has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2040 by AZPaul3, posted 12-26-2021 10:39 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 2041 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-26-2021 11:56 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33658
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2039 of 2041 (890125)
12-26-2021 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2036 by EWolf
12-26-2021 12:18 AM


Hoping you see a full recovery.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2036 by EWolf, posted 12-26-2021 12:18 AM EWolf has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6215
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 2040 of 2041 (890126)
12-26-2021 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2038 by Percy
12-26-2021 9:59 AM


Not yet.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2038 by Percy, posted 12-26-2021 9:59 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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