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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
JonF
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Posts: 6073
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1336 of 1390 (875482)
04-27-2020 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1328 by candle2
04-27-2020 6:48 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
I note you did not mention the substance of my post. None of those are incompatible with the theory of evolution. You are mindless regurgitating PRATTS (Points Refuted A Thousand Times). Covered in great detail at An Index to Creationist Claims.

Of course you won't look at it, having no interest in reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by candle2, posted 04-27-2020 6:48 AM candle2 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1337 of 1390 (875484)
04-27-2020 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1335 by Phat
04-27-2020 9:28 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
Because I am a Christian and what I posted in supported by what is actually written in the Bible.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1335 by Phat, posted 04-27-2020 9:28 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1338 by Phat, posted 04-27-2020 9:57 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1338 of 1390 (875485)
04-27-2020 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1337 by jar
04-27-2020 9:46 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
jar writes:

Because I am a Christian...

One simple question: Where is God right now?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1337 by jar, posted 04-27-2020 9:46 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1339 by jar, posted 04-27-2020 10:50 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1339 of 1390 (875494)
04-27-2020 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1338 by Phat
04-27-2020 9:57 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
LOL

Phat writes:

Where is God right now

In the minds of all of those who happen to believe in that particular unique God that humans created and then adopted.

God(s) only exist in the minds of the believers.

Edited by jar, : add additional line


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1338 by Phat, posted 04-27-2020 9:57 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1340 by dwise1, posted 04-27-2020 12:35 PM jar has responded
 Message 1344 by Phat, posted 04-27-2020 11:41 PM jar has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4163
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1340 of 1390 (875499)
04-27-2020 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1339 by jar
04-27-2020 10:50 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
In the minds of all of those who happen to believe in that particular unique God that humans created and then adopted.

God(s) only exist in the minds of the believers.

Even if a sentient supernatural entity were to exist that could arguably be considered as being "God" (which I shall refer to as an "actual god"), the God (in all its different and often conflicting forms) that Man worships would still have been created by Man.

Hypothetically, such an "actual god", being supernatural, would be outside of Man's ability to study, let alone even detect. Instead, Man would be left with having to use a vast paucity of evidence to infer the nature (¿super-nature?), temperament, intentions, wishes, approval/disapproval, etc of that "actual god". All those inferences would necessarily be based on nothing more than Man's unfounded assumptions amplified and augmented by further assumptions of what would seem to make sense based on those unfounded assumptions.

Even if Man were somehow able to detect and study the supernatural, an "actual god" would be so far beyond what Man's feeble could possibly comprehend. Since it is so far beyond Man's ability to deal directly with an "actual god", Man must resort to working with surrogate gods, kind of place-holders for what we don't understand and cannot work with directly. It is those surrogate gods that Man creates.

The catch is that this process will be the same independent of the existence or non-existence of any "actual god". A corollary catch is that even if an "actual god" were to exist, it is far more likely for Man to completely miss the mark instead of describing that "actual god" with any degree of accuracy. Let's face it, Man has been shooting blind and will continue to shoot blind.

Unfortunately, there's really no other approach open to Man. The only other course of action available to Man would be to just give up completely on the question of gods. For Man to be able to work with ideas about gods, Man must first create surrogate gods that he can work with.

A corollary to this is that every individual believer who has ever actually thought about God goes that same process, basically creating his own personal God-surrogate.

So then, yes, Man created God ... in his own image, since that's how Man thinks. The danger is for Man to then mistake his created surrogates for the Real Thing. They are not.

I would also point out here that what atheists reject is most often not the idea of an "actual god", but rather the surrogate gods that Man has created and is mistaking for any "actual gods" which those surrogates almost completely fail to describe with any degree of accuracy. IOW, the theists say, "Believe in our god!", and we say, "Oh hell no!"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1339 by jar, posted 04-27-2020 10:50 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1341 by jar, posted 04-27-2020 12:43 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1341 of 1390 (875500)
04-27-2020 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1340 by dwise1
04-27-2020 12:35 PM


Re: Evolution over Religion
Exactly; which is why I have always tried to distinguish between GOD, God(s) and god(s).

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 1340 by dwise1, posted 04-27-2020 12:35 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1342 of 1390 (875518)
04-27-2020 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1330 by candle2
04-27-2020 8:14 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
candle2 writes:

However, I am not kin to the apes, nor were any of my ancestors.


The apes don't admit being related to you either.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

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 Message 1330 by candle2, posted 04-27-2020 8:14 AM candle2 has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 1343 of 1390 (875522)
04-27-2020 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1331 by candle2
04-27-2020 8:24 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
candle2 writes:

I love science. Look at all the ways that science
improved our standard of living.
God commands His followers to "prove" all things.

The way I see the situation is this:

The Bible and science vs. evolutionists and misguided
human reasoning.

Just a thought. It is great to have a few fellow Christians on this forum, (although I disagree with you on the evolution issue), but I hope that you're realizing that any kind of theist around here has to develop a pretty thick skin. Hope that you're up to it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1331 by candle2, posted 04-27-2020 8:24 AM candle2 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1344 of 1390 (875528)
04-27-2020 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1339 by jar
04-27-2020 10:50 AM


A Character In His Own Mind
If you believe that God is only a creation of our mind, you are NOT a believer. Sorry, Charlie.

You may talk a good talk and have some logical arguments, but you are not helping anyone...apart from perhaps taking out their trash and helping take shopping carts back inside the store. Your own pride and insistence on your own explanations of what it means to be a Christian are at best helping you to justify your membership in a club according only to your own definition.

You might try and pray for wisdom. Of course, your own belief suggests that only a character whom your own mind creates can even respond to you.

I'll keep you in prayer, however.

Edited by Phat, : clarification


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1339 by jar, posted 04-27-2020 10:50 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1350 by jar, posted 04-28-2020 8:55 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1345 of 1390 (875530)
04-27-2020 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1273 by ringo
11-16-2018 11:04 AM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
ringo, replying to candle2 writes:

You're misunderstanding what the knowledge of God is.

Apart from what the Bible says, all that we have are opinions. You may even argue that the Bible itself has nothing better.

Colossians 1:15 writes:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Colossians 2:9 writes:

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

1 Timothy 6:16 writes:

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

And then again, you may not have a clever retort. At which time I will say that we are making progress!


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1273 by ringo, posted 11-16-2018 11:04 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1356 by ringo, posted 04-28-2020 6:33 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4163
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1346 of 1390 (875531)
04-28-2020 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1328 by candle2
04-27-2020 6:48 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
And there you go again, which brings us right back to my questions in Please go back to Message 20, Message 25, Message 26 that you ran away.

No poster on this site has "observed" a dog producing a cat; a
cow producing a raccoon; or, an ape producing a human.

By that last one, I assume that by "ape" you meant other species of ape such as gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos. Because we are apes, just our own species of ape:

  • Genus Homo -- only extant species
  • Tribe Hominini -- genera Homo and Pan (chimpazees and bonobos)
  • Subfamily Homininae -- includes Hominini and Gorillini (gorillas)
  • Family Hominidae -- includes Homininae and Ponginae (orangutans)
By the same token, we are also mammals, so it would have been just as ridiculous for you to have declared that we have never observed "a mammal producing a human."

But you are right back to that same nonsensical falsehood that you were spouting before but ran away rather than try to support.

Let's go over it yet again!

My Message 16 in response to your Message 10 in which I suspected you would use this ludicrous false claim:

DWise1 writes:

What we observe is that "kind produce kind." Both historical and observable science support this fact.

Yes, and evolution demands it because that's how it works: daughter species remain within its parents species' clade. We call it Monophyly, though more colloquially, "nested clades" (quoted from that Wikipedia link):
quote:
In cladistics, a monophyletic group, or clade, is a group of organisms that consists of all the descendants of a common ancestor. Monophyletic groups are typically characterised by shared derived characteristics (synapomorphies), which distinguish organisms in the clade from other organisms. The arrangement of the members of a monophyletic group is called a monophyly.

So, somehow you seem to think that "kind produce kind" disproves evolution. Could you please explain that position, because it doesn't make any sense. For example, if you believe evolution requires one kind producing offspring of a different kind then please state so explicitly and offer examples that you would expect and why -- a common creationist example I've seen is that evolution would cause us to expect a dog having kittens.

Your failure to reply in Message 17 at least verified that you were indeed using that particular brain-dead false claim:

candle2 writes:

What we don't observe is apes producing humans, or bobcats producing pigs. When someone suggests this scenario I wonder about that person.

My suspicions confirmed, I asked for you to support your claim and present how you had arrived at such a nonsensical conclusion; Message 20:

DWise1 writes:

What we don't observe is apes producing humans, or bobcats producing pigs. When someone suggests this scenario I wonder about that person.

So do I, especially when that person is a creationist, which is usually the only kind of person who would say something so stupid.

You didn't answer my question:

DWise1 writes:

So, somehow you seem to think that "kind produce kind" disproves evolution. Could you please explain that position, because it doesn't make any sense. For example, if you believe evolution requires one kind producing offspring of a different kind then please state so explicitly and offer examples that you would expect and why -- a common creationist example I've seen is that evolution would cause us to expect a dog having kittens.

So then, are you saying that that is your position? Are you confirming that you believe that evolution would require offspring which are of an entirely different clade, such as "bobcats producing pigs"? So far, your attempt at avoiding to give me a straight answer tells me that that is indeed your position.

So my question, which I've had to post a second time above, is why do you believe something so blatantly false? What is the reasoning behind that claim? Yes, I know that that is one of the stock lies that you are taught as a creationist, so you turn your brain off and accept all those lies unquestioningly, meaning that you have no clue what those claims are actually talking about.

That is why you need to answer my question, so you can understand that claim yourself. Starting from how evolution works, explain how your knowledge of evolution would require "bobcats producing pigs." Explain how you got from there to here.

Remember, this is what I asked (emphasis added): "if you believe evolution requires one kind producing offspring of a different kind then please state so explicitly and offer examples that you would expect and why"

Please try to at least try to answer my question this time.

Not only did you not even try to answer, but within 11 hours you ran away like a frightened little girl and laid low for an entire year hoping that we would forget all about your false and dishonest claims.

Well, we have a long memory here.

So answer the questions!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by candle2, posted 04-27-2020 6:48 AM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1358 by candle2, posted 04-29-2020 7:14 AM dwise1 has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4163
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1347 of 1390 (875533)
04-28-2020 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1331 by candle2
04-27-2020 8:24 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
I love science. Look at all the ways that science
improved our standard of living.

The typical creationist lie!

Well if you love science and all that, then why are you trying to destroy science education? Why are you spreading lies about science?

Oh sure, you want to be able to pick and choose which parts of science to get rid of because you like your flush toilet too much. But whereas you are free to pick and choose which parts of Christianity to keep or ignore, science is an integrated whole filled with interdependencies, such that destroying one part of science will also destroy the other parts.

You cannot pick and choose in science, because the whole thing has to work.

So then, no, you have demonstrated that you do not love science. So please stop lying about it.

Why do you hate science so much? Do you feel threatened by it? Do you think that it threatens your religion? If your religion is true then it should never have anything to fear from science.

And if your religion is false, then it would only need fear science if that religion makes false claims about the real world -- which "creation science" does do quite a bit, doesn't it? But if your religion proves to make false claims, then shouldn't you want to know that so that you can leave it for a religion which is true? I mean, who would want to follow a false religion?

God commands His followers to "prove" all things.

Yes, 1 Thessalonians 5:21. Even though some translations say "test", the meaning is the same, that you need to verify everything in order to discard that which is false and hold on to that which is true.

So why do you refuse to obey God? Why do you refuse to test the nonsense, the falsehoods, the lies, and the deceptions of "creation science", but instead embrace them? Not only embrace them, but spread them.

Don't you know any Christian doctrine? God is not to be served through lies and deception. But Christian doctrine does describe one who is served through lies and deception. I'm sure that he'll be pleased to meet you. Can you guess his name? But what's puzzling you is the nature of his game.

So whom do you actually serve?

The way I see the situation is this:

The Bible and science vs. evolutionists and misguided
human reasoning.

Meaning what? What are you talking about? Explain yourself! Especially since you have demonstrated that you don't know what any of those words mean.

Again! Here is my question that you refused to answer; from Message 1327:

DWise1 writes:

But why is it that you concentrate so much of your hatred of science against evolution. Why do you single out evolution? Why not physics? Or geology? Or astronomy? Each of those other sciences are key in exposing the falsehood of creationists' young-earth claims, so (assuming you are also a young-earther) you should really hate them. And yet you focus almost all of your hate at evolution. Why?

You obviously do not understand evolution. Do you fear it? Do you feel threatened by it? Whatever kind of threat could evolution possibly pose to you?

Keep in mind that there is no conflict between science and religion -- with the sole exception of a religion which makes false claims about the real world.

And there is no conflict between evolution and creation. Again, unless your religion makes false claims about the real world.

If you honestly believe that there are conflicts, then present your reasons for believing that.

But then in my four decades of experience I have very rarely seen a creationist do anything with any amount of honesty. Or truthfulness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1331 by candle2, posted 04-27-2020 8:24 AM candle2 has not yet responded

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 79
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1348 of 1390 (875536)
04-28-2020 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
08-11-2010 9:14 AM


Gen 1 & Gen 2:1-4 is an abridged view of cosmic events taking place in
the creation week. This account is an order of events, and
a brief summary of each day.

Gen 2:5-25 is not a different account of creation. One, by necessity,
would be gullible and/or naive to believe that a man would make
such mistakes mere verses apart.

The fault lies with the interpretor and not the writer.

Gen 2 is simply a more detailed report of Adam and Eve events of day six.
It deals with the Garden of Eden.

The phrase "of the field" in 2:5 comes from the Hebrew "sodeh". Sodeh in
in this case refers to cultivated plants that are planted by man.

While there were plants on day six (plants were created on day three),
there were no cultivated plants.

Why were there no cultivated plant? The answer is quite simple. The
rest of v.5 tell us that there was no man to till the ground.

C. 2 does not state that plants and animals were created after man!!
It simply mentions creation after mentioning the creation of man.

The order in which events are mentioned here does not claim to be
the order in which they happened.

Hebrew does not have "tense" as does English.
Past, present, and future of an "action verb" is determined by context.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 08-11-2010 9:14 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1351 by jar, posted 04-28-2020 8:57 AM candle2 has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4163
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1349 of 1390 (875537)
04-28-2020 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1328 by candle2
04-27-2020 6:48 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
No poster on this site has "observed" a dog producing a cat; a
cow producing a raccoon;

You keep trying to use this to refute evolution. Why? And how could you possibly think that that would work?

Nobody but a creationist would ever use such a stupid claim. Not only does that have nothing to do with evolution, but it is the exact opposite of the conclusions that we would draw from evolution. For that matter, if we were to observe a "dog producing a cat" or a "cow producing a raccoon", then that would be evidence against evolution, as well as against most of the rest of biology.

So why do you keep using that false claim? And why do you need to resort to misrepresenting and lying about science? Because you have nothing else?

Only a creationist could be so stupid as to use that stupid nonsensical claim (among so many other false claims). And so many creationists are that stupid because so many of them use that claim! Why is that? What is so very wrong with you people?

Over the decades, I've noticed a number of trends and characteristics among creationists. Very briefly:

  • All creationists operate through fanaticism based on premises that they try to keep secret, though it does slip out at times. A reflection of this is the fact that "creation science" was created as a deliberate legalistic deception in order to circumvent the US courts.

  • The lower ranks operate mostly through ignorance. They accept without question (nor thought) what their leaders tell them as well as any creationist claim they may encounter. Instead of testing/proving those claims as commanded in 1 Thessalonians 5:21, they memorize those claims with many lower-rank creationists then spreading them (as you have been doing here). They do not understand those claims, only how to repeat them mindlessly. Because they do not understand their own claims, they are completely unable to even begin to try to support or discuss their own claims. As a result, whenever anyone tries to discuss their claims with them, all they can do is to avoid discussion in any way possible, including by running away.

  • With experience, creationists learn to be dishonest. The more experience they gain, the more dishonest they become. If the creationist is basically honest, he will reach a point where he abandons "creation science" -- many forum members who oppose "creation science" have gone through that process.
    But if the creationist is basically dishonest, then he will become increasingly and more deliberately dishonest.
 
candle2, I have you pegged as a low-ranking creationist who does not have any clue about the claims you use -- all that matters to you is that your claims seem to sound convincing to you. You are completely incapable of supporting or discussing or explaining your claims, so you avoid doing so in any way you can.

But you need to know what your claims and your premises are based on, which means that you really need to learn.

And we need to learn what your claims and premises are based on so that we can help you to learn. As well as to be able to have meaningful discussions with creationists for a welcome change.

Your user name is ironic. A candle is used to shed light on a subject, whereas your mission is to cloak everything in darkness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by candle2, posted 04-27-2020 6:48 AM candle2 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1350 of 1390 (875540)
04-28-2020 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1344 by Phat
04-27-2020 11:41 PM


Re: A Character In His Own Mind
Phat writes:

If you believe that God is only a creation of our mind, you are NOT a believer. Sorry, Charlie.

Yet the fact is that I am a believer and reality always wins.

Phat writes:

You may talk a good talk and have some logical arguments, but you are not helping anyone...apart from perhaps taking out their trash and helping take shopping carts back inside the store. Your own pride and insistence on your own explanations of what it means to be a Christian are at best helping you to justify your membership in a club according only to your own definition.

No Phat, the fact that I am a member of an established and recognized Christian Faith is once again reality.

Phat writes:

You might try and pray for wisdom. Of course, your own belief suggests that only a character whom your own mind creates can even respond to you.

And more absurdities and simply false assertions from you. I have asked repeatedly how anyone can tell and identify who any character that responds to your mind really might be.

I'll ask yet again Phat; how do you know that the thing you claim to be communing with is anything other than a figment of your imagination?

But again, I was responding to a question you asked, a specific question even if an absurd one.

The question was "Where is God right now"?

Stop and honestly read what you wrote.

Can you not see that is simply the same question eight year old Virginia O'Hanlon wrote and that you and I have discussed? And can't you see the answer is the same and equally valid for Virginia and for you?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1344 by Phat, posted 04-27-2020 11:41 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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