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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
jar
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Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1351 of 1390 (875541)
04-28-2020 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1348 by candle2
04-28-2020 6:44 AM


And once again you simply show that you are either incapable of honestly reading what is written in the Bible stories or simply have not actually read the Bible. You are classic CCoI!

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1348 by candle2, posted 04-28-2020 6:44 AM candle2 has not yet responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1352 of 1390 (875547)
04-28-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1328 by candle2
04-27-2020 6:48 AM


Please define what you mean by Evolution
Observation proves that human parents produce human babies;
that puppies come from dogs; that piglets come from pigs; and,
chimps procreate chimps.

Which evolution (as defined by science) actually predicts. So it seems you have/use a different definition than science uses, if you think this challenges evolution (as defined by science).

Can you define what you mean by "evolution?" This is necessary to have a rational discussion about evolution, don't you think?

No poster on this site has "observed" a dog producing a cat; a cow producing a raccoon; ...

The observation of which would actually disprove evolution, so not observing it does not disprove evolution (as defined by science).

Never has a pregnant woman asked "I wonder what kind of animal will I give birth to?

They know for certain that their offsprings will be a human.

Why are they (and I) so sure of this fact? Because for thousands of years we have observed.this to be true.

Again, this is predicted by evolution (as defined by science), so seeing this does not disprove evolution (as defined by science).

This is observable science. Science does not disagree with this proven fact; ...

Facts are facts, they are not proven, nor do they need to be, they are facts.

... however, evolutionists (whose paradigm prevents them from seeing truth) reject "observational science."

What's an "evolutionist?" What is their "paradigm?"

Are the non-observational sciences?

Fossils exist. This is a proven fact. But, they don't comes with labels attached to them, stating how old they are, or how many offsprings they had.

Indeed, but sciences (physics, chemistry, geology) have determined many ways to test for the ages of fossils. When several methods reach the same result we have high confidence in that result.

Humans (guided by their paradigm) ...

Again, can you define this paradigm?

... place their own interpretations on them.

That would be science interpreting the data, a standard aspect of any science.

Scientists (evolutionists) ...

Are all scientist evolutionists" (and again, what is an evolutionist?)

... might accept evolution as being true, ...

Most scientists do, based on a preponderance of evidence showing evolution (as defined by science) occurring again and again, with no evidence of it being erroneous or mistaken.

... but science is not so kind to this concept.

So you state, but fail to demonstrate. Nothing you have said challenges evolution (as defined by science) in any way.

What you have demonstrated, if anything, is that your model of evolution (whatever that is -- you have yet to define it) is wrong. In science we discard failed models. Will you? That is how you learn.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by candle2, posted 04-27-2020 6:48 AM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1353 by candle2, posted 04-28-2020 3:23 PM RAZD has responded

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 79
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1353 of 1390 (875551)
04-28-2020 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1352 by RAZD
04-28-2020 12:29 PM


Re: Please define what you mean by Evolution
Evolutionists believe minute changes, which they refer to as micro evolution (it is nothing more than variations in a species), over the course of eons, leads to macro evolution.

Evolutionists require great amounts of time in order for a species to evolve and create a totally different species.

They believe that "time" can do the impossible.

Evolutionists must have great faith to believe in their concept, because it certainly isn't observable. There is no way possible for them to prove their assertions.

I only believe in science that can be proven. True science never relies solely on assumptions.

And what I observe is "kind producing kind"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1352 by RAZD, posted 04-28-2020 12:29 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1354 by dwise1, posted 04-28-2020 4:19 PM candle2 has not yet responded
 Message 1355 by jar, posted 04-28-2020 5:53 PM candle2 has not yet responded
 Message 1357 by RAZD, posted 04-28-2020 10:26 PM candle2 has not yet responded
 Message 1368 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-30-2020 11:22 AM candle2 has responded

  
dwise1
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Posts: 4163
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1354 of 1390 (875554)
04-28-2020 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1353 by candle2
04-28-2020 3:23 PM


Re: Please define what you mean by Evolution
Yet again you have avoided answering our simple and very necessary questions.

You still have not explained to us what an "evolutionist" is. You still have not explained what you mean by "evolution".

All you have done has been to regurgitate standard creationist nonsense in a typically creationist brain-dead manner.

And you still have not supported your use of the utterly stupid creationist "kind producing kind" argument (ie, that evolution is supposed to require dogs producing cats), which is so completely and utterly stupid that only creationists believe it.

Evolution predicts "kind producing kind"; that's called Monophyly. But we have already explained that to you repeatedly, like my Message 16 on 13 Feb 2019:

DWise1 writes:

candle2 writes:

What we observe is that "kind produce kind." Both historical and observable science support this fact.


Yes, and evolution demands it because that's how it works: daughter species remain within its parents species' clade. We call it Monophyly, though more colloquially, "nested clades" (quoted from that Wikipedia link):
quote:
In cladistics, a monophyletic group, or clade, is a group of organisms that consists of all the descendants of a common ancestor. Monophyletic groups are typically characterised by shared derived characteristics (synapomorphies), which distinguish organisms in the clade from other organisms. The arrangement of the members of a monophyletic group is called a monophyly.

So, somehow you seem to think that "kind produce kind" disproves evolution. Could you please explain that position, because it doesn't make any sense. For example, if you believe evolution requires one kind producing offspring of a different kind then please state so explicitly and offer examples that you would expect and why -- a common creationist example I've seen is that evolution would cause us to expect a dog having kittens.

In your subsequent posts you confirmed my suspicion and demonstrated that you do indeed believe in that must stupid of creationist false claims which you call "kind producing kind". Only "then why are there still monkeys?" or "but they're STILL MOTHS!!!" might be more stupid.

Stop avoiding discussion. Stop being a mindless troll. Learn something. You cannot ever hope to fight effectively against evolution (though you have also refused to explain why you hate evolution so much) unless you learn as much as possible about evolution, not the lies and misrepresentations that the creationists have taught you. The audience can clearly see when you are only beating up a straw man and not your actual declared opponent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1353 by candle2, posted 04-28-2020 3:23 PM candle2 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1355 of 1390 (875558)
04-28-2020 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1353 by candle2
04-28-2020 3:23 PM


Basics, learn the very basics.
The issue of Christianity vs Evolution is simply utter nonsense taught by the Christian Cult of *********. Use peek mode if needed. Within Christianity almost all of the major Christian sects fully acknowledges that ALL of the evidence supports the Theory of Evolution, an Old Earth, that humans are simply a lineage withing the Order Primates and that neither of the Biblical Flood myths ever happened.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1356 of 1390 (875560)
04-28-2020 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1345 by Phat
04-27-2020 11:59 PM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
Phat writes:

And then again, you may not have a clever retort.


Well, your quotes from Colossians and Timothy are just opinions - and pretty word-salady ones at that - ao there's no need for a "retort". Did you understand what I said to candle2?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1357 of 1390 (875565)
04-28-2020 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1353 by candle2
04-28-2020 3:23 PM


Re: Please define what you mean by Evolution
Evolutionists believe minute changes, which they refer to as micro evolution (it is nothing more than variations in a species), over the course of eons, leads to macro evolution.
Evolutionists require great amounts of time in order for a species to evolve and create a totally different species.

They believe that "time" can do the impossible.

Evolutionists must have great faith to believe in their concept, because it certainly isn't observable. There is no way possible for them to prove their assertions.

Curiously I don’t know any scientist, biologist, ecologist, or otherwise that believes any of this muddled twaddle

And I notice you did not define EVOLUTION, which is probably why this twaddle you rattle on about.

Please give it a whack, and now also define what you mean by “macro evolution” ... just for fun. And then tell me what you mean by “a totally different species.” Because good debate depends on all parties understanding what each other says.

I only believe in science that can be proven. True science never relies solely on assumptions

Never took a real science have you?

Nothing is proven in any science. If you think otherwise give an example.

The theory of gravity is not proven, for example, so if you don’t believe science unless proven, I invite you to jump off a 10 story building. You can test the theory and perhaps invalidate it.

Do you know what the scientific method is? Occam's Razor? Anything on Popper’s theories?

It seems you have a lot to learn. A good first start is that what you think you know is probably wrong.

And what I observe is "kind producing kind"

Don’t you mean “kinds reproducing within their kinds” ... ? Not producing (some other) kind.

Curiously, what I observe is clades reproducing (generation after generation), offspring within their clades

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1353 by candle2, posted 04-28-2020 3:23 PM candle2 has not yet responded

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 79
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1358 of 1390 (875569)
04-29-2020 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1346 by dwise1
04-28-2020 2:10 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
Kind refers to, in this case, animals that are biologically related; have common ancestors; and, can reproduce.

All humans are of the same kind. We fulfill the criteria. All three.

I group kind into the classification of family.

Donkeys, horses, and zebras are of the same kind because they fit the criteria. However, they are not the same species. Even though some offsprings might have great difficulty reproducing they are still of the same kind.

The same is true for dogs; coyotes; foxes; wolves; etc.... And all species grouped into the same kind.

Two animals of the same kind, but not necessarily the same species, can reproduce. And, as I previously stated not always can the offspring replicate. This is also true of humans. Sometimes "isolation" plays a role in this, but loss of genetic information is not evolution; in fact, it is the opposite.

Kind is the limit to reproduction.

Observation science has shown that kind produce kind, just as Moses stated in Genesis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1346 by dwise1, posted 04-28-2020 2:10 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1359 by jar, posted 04-29-2020 8:42 AM candle2 has responded
 Message 1378 by dwise1, posted 05-01-2020 1:31 AM candle2 has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1359 of 1390 (875572)
04-29-2020 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1358 by candle2
04-29-2020 7:14 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
Moshe, if Moshe even really existed, did not write Genesis, Genesis is the product of an unknown number or authors, editors, story tellers and redactors over many many centuries and from at least two entirely different theologies and cultures.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1358 by candle2, posted 04-29-2020 7:14 AM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1360 by candle2, posted 04-29-2020 9:24 AM jar has responded

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 79
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1360 of 1390 (875574)
04-29-2020 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1359 by jar
04-29-2020 8:42 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
No offense jar, but I prefer to trust in my own judgement; unless, of course, you were a eyewitness to the event.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1359 by jar, posted 04-29-2020 8:42 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1361 by Tangle, posted 04-29-2020 10:49 AM candle2 has responded
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Tangle
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Posts: 7618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1361 of 1390 (875577)
04-29-2020 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1360 by candle2
04-29-2020 9:24 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
Candle2 writes:

No offense jar, but I prefer to trust in my own judgement; unless, of course, you were a eyewitness to the event.

Were you an eye witness at Christ's resurrection?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1360 by candle2, posted 04-29-2020 9:24 AM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1362 of 1390 (875584)
04-29-2020 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1360 by candle2
04-29-2020 9:24 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
You are of course free to believe any stupid thing you wish. That is a trait of the CCoI. But reality always trumps belief.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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candle2
Member
Posts: 79
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1363 of 1390 (875588)
04-29-2020 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1361 by Tangle
04-29-2020 10:49 AM


Re: Evolution over Religion
You ask if I were an eyewitness to the resurrection. The answer is no, and I freely admit this. However, there were numerous eyewitnesses. Many of them were willing to die because His resurrection had changed them to the depth of their soul. These were the same people who had cowered in fear, and who had denied Him.

If this had been a hoax the Pharisees would have exposed it at any cost.

In any event, I am not trying to have Christianity taught in school at taxpayers expense.

Faith based beliefs should not be supported by taxpayers. This is true for evolution


This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1364 of 1390 (875589)
04-29-2020 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1363 by candle2
04-29-2020 4:49 PM


Re: Evolution over Religion
candle2 writes:

You ask if I were an eyewitness to the resurrection. The answer is no

So your belief doesn't pass your own test. Seems like you have a double standard to me.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1363 by candle2, posted 04-29-2020 4:49 PM candle2 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1365 of 1390 (875590)
04-29-2020 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1363 by candle2
04-29-2020 4:49 PM


Re: Evolution over Religion
And yet the stories of the resurrection all vary and evolve just like all folk tales. It's just like the stories of Saul's conversion and of the Great Commission, as each tale gets repeated and retold it becomes more and more fanciful and unbelievable.

Evolution though is NOT based on faith but in fact based on doubt. That is the big advantage. Any tentative conclusions are tested not just against new evidence but also through EVERY new line of inquiry; every new means of testing. That is why it is science and not faith based. No conclusion in evolution or other areas of sience goes unchallenged.

Religion though should be taught in my opinion, and taught early and continuously so that religious beliefs are held to the same standards of evidence as reality or science. Religion has done some good in the world but mostly harm, and it's important that both the good and harm be acknowledged.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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