Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2

I know that you are probably joking here but would make you think this might even be any thing like heavenDoesnt look very spaciousOn an individual basis though if the statement is true that "in my Fathers house there are many mansion." Mine will be a silver city that is gleeming in the distance, recognizable from thousands of light years away. All of the dogs (actual k9s, not the other type) I ever owned will be inside with me along ofcourse with my loved ones and the outside will be patrolled and protected by thousands of others. Of course these dogs will have super cosmic abilities like Underdog, of course.The city in the pictures does however look much like I am hoping for, pretty neatEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Also, should we always be that specific about the usage of a word simply because it carries a specific meaning. IOWs should we always carry it to or apply its strictest meaning when it is used in a sentence.Here is what I mean. Yes I understand that bara means something from nothing, but now compare that usage of the word with what is written in Hebrews 11:3"By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.So in essence (nopun intended, Nothing could simply mean nothing from our perspective, correct.? It doesnt have to mean nothing, nothing.Secondly there is the logical perspective that if Gods power or essence is and has to be involved in the process, there is still something being used (Gods essence, knowledge and power) to bring materialabout, correct?On of the fatal mistakes people make, I believe, is over application of definitions,without consideration forwhat the rest of the Bible or text says or how it is being used.Example, "Commits adultry".
Just a thoughtDBEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Me neither,I was simply pointing out that while words have meanings, they can be over used,so as to miss the true meaning of the writer, possibly.I dont 'see' the sharp distinction you are making about two creations of humans, did you read that somewhere or think of it on your own?Could you be making a distinction that does not exist?Please continue, with JaywillDBEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Just a quick note. Why in the wildest imagination would you think God would punish or torture a being or tool as you put it, for something for which they had no control, freewill or decision.That is if Satan had no choice at all and could not avoid his actions and conclusions, why should he be punished at all. Certainly its not a big play or game.Your assertions on this partiular matter dont seem to be consistent with your normal Biblical approach.DBEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Hey while you guys are in a break, do you mind responding to my last post above. That is if you have timeThe DB

I said he would be tormented forever. There will be no one to deceive, tempt, and no accusations to make before God.

How could a programmed being torment itself, what woud be the point. When the plan for Satan has expired why would not he expire as well, wouldnt his purpose have been served, since he was created for a specific purpose.So he goes on eternally to think about what he had no choice and control over in th first place. Why would a programmed being worry or think about anything.So God creates a being for a specific purpose, then has him going on eternally to think about what he cannot do and its NOT TORTURE by Gods handDoes that make sense to you?You are way to smart an individual to believe such thingsEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

I dont think you understand, it not a matter of simple disagreement, you are involving yourself in self-contradictionJesus could not accuse Satan of being the father of lies and liars without him having and possessing freewill. My dogs do many things that make me angry and upset, that does not make them evil, bad or immoral or liars.You only have two choices, he is either a willful liar or he is an animal. Do you ever remember God refering to any animal as evil or immoral.There are no inbetween creatures as you are suggesting.DB

Your simplicity while cute is misguided and in bad need of instruction. If God created evil, as you are implying the text suggests, then no onem not even humans are responsible for anything and should not be punished for a single moment.Certainly you understand him to mean God created the potential not the evil itselfAgain how can Satan be a liar without a freewill?DB

Could you elaborate on this statmentdb

Sorry, pouble dostDBEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Take up your argument with God if you disagree that God created evil.

I was hoping for more than a "Nanny Nanny boo boo", approach but ok.here is the deal brother, sometimes expressions have to be taken into consideration with what the rest of the scriptures says about a topic.The scriptures says Jesus is the Prince of peace, but it has him suggesting and stating that he did not come to bring peace but a sword. So did he come to bring peace or confusionI believe what the scripture says as well, but I dont think his actual PURPOSE was to bring division and strife, only that that would be the result due to his message and its affects on people.So possiibly God means, as a result of creating freewill he has opened the possibilty for evil to exist"The possibility of sin is anyalytical to the proposition of frewill"I didnt think that statement up Dr Warren did, I just like using it because I sound intelligent to myself. Yeah I know, its not working, but he is correct.Iif God created evil, then he created evil across the board. Not only is Satan evil but then so is everybody else.Actually to say that god created Satan to perform no other way that he has and at the sametime say he was created EVIL is a logical impossibility.Robot behavior with no thought process involved, could not be classified as evil, it could not be claasified as anything resembling reason.Here is a greater perspective though.In the first place nowhere in scripture is it even intimated that he was created in a way to act no other way than he has.That is your first problem, that has you starting with a false presupposition.Secondly, if God created evil, there would be no need to present a plan to get rid of something for which I have no control in the first place and for which I am not responsibleThirdly, this approach that God is the author of evil and he created Satan to act in no other way than he has thows the scriptures into disarray and confusion and makes any plan of salvation a joke and a waste of time.DBEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

ICANT writes

Why did God allow the tempter He created to exist in the garden? Well if there had not been a tempter there would not have been a choice. You have to have an either or situation for a choice to be made.

Jaywill writes

My final answers will be real brief. ​ It was to set up a triangular situation of a neutral man between two wills. Man's will is set there between the Divine will and the Satanic will. ​ Which way man chose with his will would determine how God would accomplish His plan. God cannot be stopped. But his creatures can cause him some trouble.

Sorry to butt in again, just a qick note. Neither of these answers are I believe correct.We like to assume maybe to much about what Gods intentions are or are not. Example, why assume that God needed Satan in the garden for any purpose at all, other than for things to take thier natural course., ie that was satans choice in he first placethese answers presuppose that man did not have a choice or could not have made a choice without Satan there in the first place. or atleast they indirectly imply itgranted he put a little jelly on the toast, but could they not have made a choice without that jelly.Really the only Will we need suppose, is the Will that issued the command and the Will asked to obey itI dont think he needed to "Set Up" anything other than that which had already been established in the plirst face, simple freewill, with or without Satans influencePerhaps you disagree?DBEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

I agree that only one will matters in the universe, God's. ​ I am concerned about the word "need". I did write that perhaps God as having a good pleasure may have the strongest desire for pleasure of all beings. ​ I can see an objection in the way of a question, " Did God NEED to set up things the way He did?" ​ But there is no place, I think, to object that that is how God did establish the matter whether this was a need or not. ​ Let me say that God chooses to put man with his free will in between the two wills in the universe - the will of God and the will of a creature who rebelled against God. ​ Do I have any Scriptural backing to claim God chose to set up man this way in the beginning ? ​ Consider Ephesians 3:9,10 - ​ " And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mustery is, which throughout the ages has been hidden in God, who created all things. In order that now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenlies the multifarious wisdom of God might be made known through the church, according to the eternal purpose which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Eph. 3:9,10) ​ God, according to His "eternal purpose" desires to display the multifarious depth of His wisdom through the church, TO the rulers and authorities in the heavenlies. ​ I believe that Paul means both the good angels and the rebellious angels. That is that they would see that having allowed Satan to do the very best that he could, God's multifarious wisdom cannot be defeated by any authority or ruler no matter how smart or powerful. ​ It is through the church that the many faceted and infinitely capable Divine Wisdom is manifested. ​ Whether this gives me ground to say that God NEEDED to do things this way, may be a philosophical argument. I do think it proves that God desired to do things this way. ​ He allowed the highest being he created to establish himself as an opposition party opposed to the divine will of God. Even though this Satan seduces man to join the Satanic revolt, God's grace, love, and power still accomplish His will. ​ God can still display to the authorities and rulers, good and bad, that all things can only work together for good to those who are called according to His eternal purpose. ​ He desired to set up the created and dusty creature man between the eternal will of God and the temporary evil will of a creature Satan. Man is in the middle to choose. And though he choose wrongly, the result is that eternal display of God's multifarious wisdom to save the man He loves and establish him in His eternal purpose regardless.

No you misunderstand, I agree with all of this, it was simply that you seem to be implying that man could not make a choice correctly or properly without bieng pitted excally in the middle of the two Wills. I see now what that is not what you are saying or that is what God had intended, from the standpoint of freewill itselfHe had a higher purpose than simply to see if man could pass a test.DBEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Does that verse say I make peace and create evil? YES/NO

Yes, but in the same way Jesus says I have not come to bring peace but a sword, I have to set a man at variance with his father.Are those direct statements or not? Do you believe this was Jesus'actual mission or a RESULT of his primary mission.

God created evil. Evil gave man a choice. God said eat the fruit and die. Evil said God did not mean you would really die the instant you ate the fruit but that you would become as God, knowing good and evil.

Herein lies the the root problem with this philosophy. Evil did not give man a choice, frewill and a directive gave man a choice, he choice could have been the correct one not an evil one.Evil has not always existed, it exists a result of a choice in the wrong directionTo say evil gave man a choice is to imply that there was no freewill and choice when the directive by God was given in the first place. Hence they could not have obeyed the command until evil was presented, which would render the command usless and thier ability to obey it pointless

All this happened in the beginning. Show me where Satan has ever changed or ceased to try to get humans to deny, and disobey God. He has always been evil and will be.

If satan was LIFTED UP with pride against God,it would follow that this was not always there, it was a process that grew inside of him over a period of timeDBEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Your study of Gods word and your life long work and passion for him is nothing short of impressive. your one of his great ones because you have devoted a lifetime to him and that is all that really matters, not your position on this obscure point of andabout what may or may not have taken place at creationBut brother you are only a literalist when it suits your argument.You are AFTERALL, the best, brother formore important reasonsDB