Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8925 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-21-2019 7:07 AM
30 online now:
CosmicChimp, vimesey (2 members, 28 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jedothek
Post Volume:
Total: 860,160 Year: 15,196/19,786 Month: 1,919/3,058 Week: 293/404 Day: 11/96 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
41NextFF
Author Topic:   Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1 of 607 (559278)
05-08-2010 2:16 AM


JRTjr mentioned he would like to discuss Genesis chapter 1 and 2 with Rockondon.

I love to talk about Genesis so I am proposing this topic to do so.

In this thread I will affirm that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2.

In this thread the KJV, LXX and Hebrew text will be used.

The Bible will be the final authority as that is what we will be discussing.

I will start the discussion with Genesis 1:1

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is a declarative statement of completed action.

I do not know when the beginning was.

All I know is in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and it was a completed product there was nothing that had to be created as God had created it to be inhabited.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.

The Hebrew word tohuw translated vain here is the same word used in Genesis 1:2 describing the condition of the earth at that time.

Therefore Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3 does not explain what took place in Genesis 1:1.

That should do to begin the discussion.

God Bless,

Bible Study please.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Flyer75, posted 05-08-2010 7:26 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 12 by tesla, posted 05-09-2010 8:59 PM ICANT has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12618
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 2 of 607 (559292)
05-08-2010 8:09 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 3 of 607 (559343)
05-08-2010 6:07 PM


Hi ICANT,

I totally agree. The opening verse is a statment that God created the heaven and earth at some point in time but not during the 'so-called' six days.

the verses thereafter are a brief explanation of the actions he took on the existing plane, at some point in time, in order to prepare it for habitation. Hence why the earth shows its age to be billions of years old.


Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Flyer75, posted 05-08-2010 7:28 PM Peg has responded

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 651 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 4 of 607 (559354)
05-08-2010 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
05-08-2010 2:16 AM


Was it good?
Obviously I don't agree with this "theory". Yes, that's what it is, a theory. Couple of things, one: if there is a "gap" in between verse one and two, or in other words, two creations, how could God have created the earth, then millions of years of death creating the fossil record, then go ahead and create what is taught in Genesis as the 6 day and "declare it good"

Two, this "gap" is never mentioned ANYWHERE in Scripture. Christ, the apostles, and the early church leaders/writers never once refer to this although all refer at some point in time back to creation and the flood.

I'd like to add that the use of the word "tohu" is translated 10 different ways in about 20 occurrences in the OT. Isaiah 45:19 has the same word, and there it has to be translated ‘vainly’ or ‘in vain’. It is also proper to translate it that way in Isaiah 45:18. It depends on the context as to how it is to be precisely translated. In Genesis 1:2 the context simply indicates the earth had no structure as yet. It was unformed; it was not even spherical at that point, but was comprised of only the basic elements of earth material.

Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 05-08-2010 2:16 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by ICANT, posted 05-08-2010 8:22 PM Flyer75 has not yet responded
 Message 13 by jaywill, posted 05-09-2010 11:01 PM Flyer75 has not yet responded

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 651 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 5 of 607 (559355)
05-08-2010 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Peg
05-08-2010 6:07 PM


Peg,

I'm confused as to your position. Do you think there is a gap between verse one and two, followed by 6 literal days of creation or do you believe that the 6 days are actual millions of years each?

I believe you've argued in the past to the latter, hence your doubting of the word YOM, but your statement here appears to be a retraction of your earlier beliefs....correct me if I've misunderstood your position.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Peg, posted 05-08-2010 6:07 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 05-08-2010 9:02 PM Flyer75 has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 6 of 607 (559359)
05-08-2010 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Flyer75
05-08-2010 7:26 PM


Re: Theory
Hi Flyer75,

Flyer75 writes:

Obviously I don't agree with this "theory".

What are you calling a theory?

Theory definition, a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena:

Is Genesis 1:1 a theory?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Do you dispute the heaven and the earth was created in the beginning?

Do you dispute that this is a declarative statement?

Do you dispute that the Hebrew verb denotes a completed action?

Do you dispute that Isaiah said God did not create it tohuw (vain) but to be inhabited?

Flyer75 writes:

Two, this "gap"

Where was a gap affirmed?

Flyer75 writes:

Genesis 1:2 the context simply indicates the earth had no structure as yet. It was unformed; it was not even spherical at that point, but was comprised of only the basic elements of earth material.

Lets finish verse 1 before we proceed to verse 2.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Flyer75, posted 05-08-2010 7:26 PM Flyer75 has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 7 of 607 (559363)
05-08-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Flyer75
05-08-2010 7:28 PM


Flyer75 writes:

I'm confused as to your position. Do you think there is a gap between verse one and two, followed by 6 literal days of creation or do you believe that the 6 days are actual millions of years each?

I believe you've argued in the past to the latter, hence your doubting of the word YOM, but your statement here appears to be a retraction of your earlier beliefs....correct me if I've misunderstood your position.

Yes absolutely there is a gap. The first 2 verses show a planet that was already existing in a universe that had been created by God.

The following verses show the actions God proceeded to take on the existing planet in order to prepare it for habitation.

And the six days mentioned are really 6 creative time periods that could have been millions of years...they chould have been shorter or longer.

So basically, in short, God created the entire universe which included earth is mentioned in Vs 1. And at some point in time he came back to the earth and began to prepare it for habitation. The preparing of it is the 6 'days' mentioned from vs 2 onward.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Flyer75, posted 05-08-2010 7:28 PM Flyer75 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by caldron68, posted 05-09-2010 7:27 PM Peg has responded
 Message 147 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 05-25-2010 7:26 AM Peg has responded

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 2069 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 8 of 607 (559459)
05-09-2010 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Peg
05-08-2010 9:02 PM


peg writes:


And the six days mentioned are really 6 creative time periods that could have been millions of years...they chould have been shorter or longer.

How much time passed between the 3rd and 4th day Peg?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 05-08-2010 9:02 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Peg, posted 05-09-2010 7:52 PM caldron68 has not yet responded
 Message 11 by ICANT, posted 05-09-2010 8:39 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 9 of 607 (559466)
05-09-2010 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by caldron68
05-09-2010 7:27 PM


caldron68 writes:

How much time passed between the 3rd and 4th day Peg?

how long is a piece of string? no one knows.

It must have been a hell of a long time though. On day 3 the water that covered the earth was brought together so that dry land could appear. That may have included a lot of volcanic activity until the land rose above the waters. And once there was land, all types of grasses, vegetation, plants and trees were given time to grow over the surface of the earth and obviously in the water too.... so i imagine that it took a very long time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by caldron68, posted 05-09-2010 7:27 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ICANT, posted 05-09-2010 8:27 PM Peg has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 10 of 607 (559469)
05-09-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Peg
05-09-2010 7:52 PM


Re: Length
Hi Peg,

Peg writes:

how long is a piece of string? no one knows.

What does the length of a piece of string have to do with how long it is from morning to evening and then evening to morning?

Peg writes:

It must have been a hell of a long time though.

Why did it must have been a long time?

There is no evidence of such in the Bible.

Moses writes:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

God said the end of the first light period and the end of the first dark period was the first day.

Did Moses not know what he was talking about?

Did God lie to Moses?

I have heard all your explanations for long periods of time. The problem is there is no place in the Bible that supports your argument.

If you have the end of a light period and the end of a dark period with the following morning you have a day.

Unless you call God a liar.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Peg, posted 05-09-2010 7:52 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 12:09 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 11 of 607 (559471)
05-09-2010 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by caldron68
05-09-2010 7:27 PM


Re: Time
Hi caldron68,

caldron68 writes:

How much time passed between the 3rd and 4th day Peg?

I am not Peg but I will answer your question.

No time passed between the end of day 3 and the beginning of day 4, as the end of one was the beginning of the other.

Now if you want to know how much time passed between day 2 and day 4 then that was a light period and a dark period and unless the rotation of the earth has increased in speed that would be close to 24 hours.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by caldron68, posted 05-09-2010 7:27 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 12 of 607 (559474)
05-09-2010 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
05-08-2010 2:16 AM


question
Dear ICANT,
Could you tell me the number of years that the bible add up to in its generations from adam to now? Is it four million years? I have forgotten. But i seem to remember there was an agreed time frame.

I am not asking to create a fire-storm of debate concerning the billions of years of the earths age, but yet a different agenda.

Do you know, good sir?

Edited by tesla, : station=frame


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 05-08-2010 2:16 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by ICANT, posted 05-09-2010 11:27 PM tesla has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 169 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 13 of 607 (559487)
05-09-2010 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Flyer75
05-08-2010 7:26 PM


Re: Was it good?
Obviously I don't agree with this "theory". Yes, that's what it is, a theory. Couple of things, one: if there is a "gap" in between verse one and two, or in other words, two creations, how could God have created the earth, then millions of years of death creating the fossil record, then go ahead and create what is taught in Genesis as the 6 day and "declare it good"

Let me begin by saying I love and totally respect Christian brothers who do not believe in this gap interpretation. And I could be wrong.

How would you answer me this question ?

Where did the pitch come from that Noah used in the construction of the ark ? See Genesis 6:14. Isn't that a tar which indicates ancient vegetation was compressed ?

Concerning a gap? Did you know that the Spirit of God might totally skip over something for spiritual reasons? Perhaps in the discussion at hand God might not account certain things positively at the moment, and exclude their mention.

For example, in Hebrews 11 we are being told of the heroes of faith. By faith these saints accomplished certain things. Notice that the writer, under inspiration, skips over the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness:

"By faith he [Moses] instituted the Passover and the pouring out of the blood so the one destroying the firstborn would not touch them.

By faith they passed through the Red Sea as through dry land, in which the Egyptians, while making the attempt, were swallowed up.

By faith the walls of Jericho fell, having been encircled for a period of seven days." (Heb. 11:28-30)

Notice that there is a "gap" of about 40 years. For some reason God did not want to include in this outline of faith, the wilderness wandering of 40 years. The wandering which occured because of thier lack of faith is simply skipped over leaving a gap. Mentioning it simply does not meet the priorities of the Holy Spirit at the moment.

Could it be that between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 there could be an interval of unspecified length within which there is something that does not immediately support the burden of the Spirit ?


Two, this "gap" is never mentioned ANYWHERE in Scripture. Christ, the apostles, and the early church leaders/writers never once refer to this although all refer at some point in time back to creation and the flood.

The "gap" may not be mentioned. I agree. But something of the pre-Adamic history of Satan could be mentioned which is best located in that gap. And I think this is what the Bible does when we are latter told about the origins of an anointed cherub of some superhuman characteristics. I refer to passages in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. Much of the speech in these passages seem to point beyond mere human figures.

I think they are instances of the prophetic past unveiling the pre-Adamic origin of Satan.

I'd like to add that the use of the word "tohu" is translated 10 different ways in about 20 occurrences in the OT. Isaiah 45:19 has the same word, and there it has to be translated ‘vainly’ or ‘in vain’. It is also proper to translate it that way in Isaiah 45:18. It depends on the context as to how it is to be precisely translated. In Genesis 1:2 the context simply indicates the earth had no structure as yet. It was unformed; it was not even spherical at that point, but was comprised of only the basic elements of earth material.

The case for an interval in which something rendered the original creation waste and void is not that strengthened by the isolated occurences of the words tohu or vabohu. It is the use of the words TOGETHER which some have pointed out indicate divine overthrow.

True, in isolated instances, the two words do not necessarily indicate divine overthrow. Together the two words form a kind of poetic phrase similar to the phrase "topsy turvy".

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Flyer75, posted 05-08-2010 7:26 PM Flyer75 has not yet responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 14 of 607 (559489)
05-09-2010 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by tesla
05-09-2010 8:59 PM


Re: question
Hi tesla long time no see,

tesla writes:

Could you tell me the number of years that the bible add up to in its generations from adam to now? Is it four million years? I have forgotten. But i seem to remember there was an agreed time station.

Since adam is a transliteration of the Hebrew word for mankind you would have to specify which mankind you was talking about.

If you are talking about the man that was formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 there are no recorded generations of him or his descendants.

If you are talking about the man called into existence at the same time as the woman in Genesis 1:27 there is some question as to the exact amount of time but it is caculated at about 6030 years.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by tesla, posted 05-09-2010 8:59 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by tesla, posted 05-10-2010 12:20 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 15 of 607 (559491)
05-10-2010 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICANT
05-09-2010 8:27 PM


Re: Length
hi ICANT,

ICANT writes:

I have heard all your explanations for long periods of time. The problem is there is no place in the Bible that supports your argument.

the word yom does support it because yom has many meanings and is used figuratively througout the bible including in genesis.

ICANT writes:

If you have the end of a light period and the end of a dark period with the following morning you have a day.

The only thing to consider is why geneis says their came to be 'evening and there came to be morning a first day' thus putting 'evening' first.

The evening is a period without light, this is the dark period and as you know, Gen 1:2 begins with 'the earth was formless and void and there was darkness and Gods active force/holy spirit began moving to and fro over the surface of the waters'

As there are no indicators of exactly when this evening began, it must have begun when Gods holy spirit began acting on the waters when the earth was in the dark & void state and before there was any light. It was at some time during that first 'day' that God said 'let there be light'....before that it was just darkness. Then, with the arrival of the light, the day came to its conclusion.

So with that in mind, its reasonable to conclude that the initial dark period is an 'evening' of an indeterminable length.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ICANT, posted 05-09-2010 8:27 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 05-10-2010 11:52 AM Peg has responded

  
1
23456
...
41NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019