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Author
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Topic: Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 571 of 607 (584743)
10-03-2010 10:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 570 by ICANT
10-03-2010 9:54 PM
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ICANT writes: I wanted an explanation of how the creation of the man in the image/likeness of God that took place on day six. Could be the same event as. The history of the man who was created in the image/likeness of God including the history of his descendants. You said they were the same event so please explain how they are the same event.
God created man in His own image. God created man in His own image. Why would anybody think it wasn't the same event?
"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 570 by ICANT, posted 10-03-2010 9:54 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 572 by ICANT, posted 10-03-2010 10:25 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 572 of 607 (584746)
10-03-2010 10:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 571 by ringo
10-03-2010 10:00 PM
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Hi ringo,
ringo writes: God created man in His own image. God created man in His own image. Why would anybody think it wasn't the same event? Are you trying to teach me a lesson in futility?
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. What man does Genesis 5:1 say it is the generations of? What man is these two verses talking about? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 571 by ringo, posted 10-03-2010 10:00 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 573 by ringo, posted 10-03-2010 10:35 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 573 of 607 (584748)
10-03-2010 10:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 572 by ICANT
10-03-2010 10:25 PM
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ICANT writes: What man does Genesis 5:1 say it is the generations of? What man is these two verses talking about?
The man that was created in God's image, the same one who was created in the other account in Genesis 1:27:
quote:
Gen 1:27 So God created man (Hebrew: adam) in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
quote:
Gen. 5:1-2 In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
One event, two accounts, almost identical wording. If you have a point, make it.
"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 572 by ICANT, posted 10-03-2010 10:25 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 574 by ICANT, posted 10-03-2010 11:11 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 574 of 607 (584752)
10-03-2010 11:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 573 by ringo
10-03-2010 10:35 PM
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Re: Point
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: The man that was created in God's image, the same one who was created in the other account in Genesis 1:27:
The point is the man was created in day six as recorded in Genesis 1:27. How do you know Genesis 5:1 refers to the account in Genesis 1:27? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 573 by ringo, posted 10-03-2010 10:35 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 575 by ringo, posted 10-04-2010 12:03 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 575 of 607 (584759)
10-04-2010 12:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 574 by ICANT
10-03-2010 11:11 PM
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Re: Point
ICANT writes: How do you know Genesis 5:1 refers to the account in Genesis 1:27?
How do you know that the four gospels refer to the same Jesus? How do you know that every epistle wasn't written by a different Paul?
"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 574 by ICANT, posted 10-03-2010 11:11 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 577 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 9:47 AM | | ringo has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 576 of 607 (584783)
10-04-2010 6:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 567 by ICANT
10-03-2010 9:31 PM
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Re: The Meaning of Day - The Rerun
quote:
Can you explain why the authors of your sourse used the pharse
"Back in the day" in God's Green Thumb But from the same source a little further in the book they use the phrase "Back in the days of Adam" in reference to Genesis 5
In English we can say it either way. Our English phrase "back in the day", supposedly came about in the late 1970's.
The expression is derived from African-American or hip-hop slang dating back to the late 1970s and early ‘80s. Cassell's Dictionary of Slang describes it as black teenage slang meaning, roughly, "once upon a time." Like any other word, no matter what language, how the word is used in the sentence tells us which meaning to use. Beyom basically means when. How it is used depends on whether it is referring back to an age or period of time or whether it is taking us forward. I really don't understand why this is so difficult other than it won't work into your theory.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 567 by ICANT, posted 10-03-2010 9:31 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 579 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 11:14 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 577 of 607 (584807)
10-04-2010 9:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 575 by ringo
10-04-2010 12:03 AM
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Re: Point
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: ICANT writes: How do you know Genesis 5:1 refers to the account in Genesis 1:27?
How do you know that the four gospels refer to the same Jesus? How do you know that every epistle wasn't written by a different Paul? Now that is evasion and mis-direction. Either you don't have an answer or you are not willing to give the answer. I think that is what is called dishonest debating. Answer the question please. How do you know Genesis 5:1 refers to the account in Genesis 1:27? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 575 by ringo, posted 10-04-2010 12:03 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 578 by ringo, posted 10-04-2010 10:26 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 578 of 607 (584811)
10-04-2010 10:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 577 by ICANT
10-04-2010 9:47 AM
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Re: Point
ICANT writes: How do you know Genesis 5:1 refers to the account in Genesis 1:27?
ringo writes: How do you know that the four gospels refer to the same Jesus? How do you know that every epistle wasn't written by a different Paul?
Now that is evasion and mis-direction.
Not at all. It's exactly the same question that you asked. How do you know that a character in one account is the same as a character in another account? If you can explain why there's only one Jesus and only one Paul, you'll have your answer to the question about why there's only one Adam.
"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 577 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 9:47 AM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 580 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 11:22 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: The Meaning of Day - The Rerun
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes: Our English phrase "back in the day", supposedly came about in the late 1970's.
The expression is derived from African-American or hip-hop slang dating back to the late 1970s and early ‘80s. Cassell's Dictionary of Slang describes it as black teenage slang meaning, roughly, "once upon a time." purpledawn writes: I really don't understand why this is so difficult other than it won't work into your theory. It is so difficult because you and ringo are trying to apply a modern day usage of words to explain what 3500 year old Hebrew text says that was translated into in English. The Hebrew word יןם which means the light portion of a day that has the prefix ב which means in, or,by or with was translated by the KJV translaters "in the day". The translators added "the" which is the English definite article to the noun day which indicates that it is a particular day. It can not be just any day. That particular day is described as the day the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth. Genesis 2:4 According to the text in Genesis 1:5 day one ended with the morning of the second day. That means God declared everything in Genesis 1:1 along with the history of that light period that ended with darkness found in Genesis 1:2 along with what happened in Genesis 1:3, 4 took place in day one. A light period and a dark period was declared day one. Now you will probably question me saying day one instead of the first day in Genesis 1:5. Which is the translation given in the KJV Bible. The translators translated אחד which is the masculine Hebrew word used in the Hebrew text that is the Cardinal number one as the ordinal number first. The Hebrew word ראשיןis the masculine Hebrew ordinal number first. Young's Literal Translation translated it day one several modern versions have translated it as one day. I suppose the KJV translators chose the word first because at the time of the translation the definition was:
KJV English Dictionary FIRST, adv. furst. 1. Before any thing else in the order of time. There was no days before Genesis 1:5. There was a light period that existed before the darkness we find at Genesis 1:2. That light period and the dark period that existed at Genesis 1:2 which came to an end with the morning of the second day was declared day one. (or the first day if you prefer). That is why I can't understand your point of view. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 580 of 607 (584822)
10-04-2010 11:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 578 by ringo
10-04-2010 10:26 AM
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Re: Point
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: Not at all. It's exactly the same question that you asked. How do you know that a character in one account is the same as a character in another account? If you can explain why there's only one Jesus and only one Paul, you'll have your answer to the question about why there's only one Adam. That is still mis-direction and has now become obfuscation. What I think has nothing to do with the question I asked. You made the statement that Genesis 5:1 refered to the account in Genesis 1:27. How do you know Genesis 5:1 refers to the account in Genesis 1:27? Answer the question please. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 578 by ringo, posted 10-04-2010 10:26 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 581 by ringo, posted 10-04-2010 11:44 AM | | ICANT has replied | | | Message 582 by jar, posted 10-04-2010 11:46 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 581 of 607 (584825)
10-04-2010 11:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 580 by ICANT
10-04-2010 11:22 AM
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Re: Point
ICANT writes: What I think has nothing to do with the question I asked. You made the statement that Genesis 5:1 refered to the account in Genesis 1:27. How do you know Genesis 5:1 refers to the account in Genesis 1:27?
I didn't ask you what you think. I asked you how you or anybody else can tell whether characters in different accounts are the same or different. Have you thought about that at all? If you can answer my question about Jesus and Paul, you'll have the answer to your question about Adam. If you can't answer my question, we can go slower.
"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 580 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 11:22 AM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 583 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 12:04 PM | | ringo has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 582 of 607 (584828)
10-04-2010 11:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 580 by ICANT
10-04-2010 11:22 AM
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Re: Point
ICANT writes: You made the statement that Genesis 5:1 refered to the account in Genesis 1:27. How do you know Genesis 5:1 refers to the account in Genesis 1:27? I believe he said they both refer to the same event. The account in Genesis 5 does NOT refer to anything in Genesis 1 since the story that is in Genesis 1 was written hundreds if not thousands of years after the story in Genesis 5. They are totally different fictional accounts.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 580 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 11:22 AM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 584 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 12:13 PM | | jar has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 583 of 607 (584832)
10-04-2010 12:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 581 by ringo
10-04-2010 11:44 AM
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Re: Point
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
ICANT writes: What I think has nothing to do with the question I asked. You made the statement that Genesis 5:1 refered to the account in Genesis 1:27. How do you know Genesis 5:1 refers to the account in Genesis 1:27? I didn't ask you what you think. I asked you how you or anybody else can tell whether characters in different accounts are the same or different. Have you thought about that at all? If you can answer my question about Jesus and Paul, you'll have the answer to your question about Adam. If you can't answer my question, we can go slower. The only thing or person that can answer the question I asked you is you. If you can't or won't answer the question we are done. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 581 by ringo, posted 10-04-2010 11:44 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 587 by ringo, posted 10-04-2010 12:41 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 584 of 607 (584838)
10-04-2010 12:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 582 by jar
10-04-2010 11:46 AM
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Re: Point
Hi jar,
jar writes: The account in Genesis 5 does NOT refer to anything in Genesis 1 since the story that is in Genesis 1 was written hundreds if not thousands of years after the story in Genesis 5. They are totally different fictional accounts. jar I know that is your opinion you have stated it enough times. Your opinion has absolutuly nothing to do with what is stated in the OP. Message 1 ICANT writes: In this thread I will affirm that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2. In this thread the KJV, LXX and Hebrew text will be used. The Bible will be the final authority as that is what we will be discussing. Now if you want to refute what the text says please do. Just remember your opinion does not refute what is written as that is what I am discussing in this thread. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 582 by jar, posted 10-04-2010 11:46 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 586 by jar, posted 10-04-2010 12:27 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 585 of 607 (584840)
10-04-2010 12:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 579 by ICANT
10-04-2010 11:14 AM
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Re: The Meaning of Day - The Rerun
quote:
It is so difficult because you and ringo are trying to apply a modern day usage of words to explain what 3500 year old Hebrew text says that was translated into in English.
Not really. The Bible doesn't say "back in the day". That is an English phrase. Our attempt is to show you that the English word day can be singular but relate to an unspecified period of time and not a single or literal day.
quote:
That is why I can't understand your point of view.
The word yom in the Genesis 1 story is a 24 hour day. I have no more to add to that. Neither story supports your theory without adding to the stories and redefining words. Genesis 2:4 is not saying that everything was done in a single day. The use of yom in that sentence is not literal. I have already shown you support for the Hebrew usage in Message 281 that is similar to our "back in the day".
The "Days" Of Creation In Genesis 1: Literal "Days" Or Figurative "Periods/Epochs" Of TimeLet us note these criteria as they are employed in Genesis 2:4. The noun yom is joined to the preposition be to read beyom. Secondly, it is used in a construct relation with the infinitive form of ‘asah, "to make." It reads literally, "in the day of making." This combination of the singular with a preposition in construct with an infinitive98 makes this combination a "temporal conjunction,"99 which serves as a "general introduction of time."100 Genesis 2:4b reads literally, "in [the] day of the Lord God making the earth and heaven. Proper English calls for the literal "in [the] day of," which is syntactically a temporal conjunction that serves as a general introduction of time, to be rendered with "when." This sentence then reads, "When the Lord God made...." This clear-cut case of an extended, non-literal use of yom in the creation account of Genesis 2:4-25 shows that the contrary usage of yom in Genesis 1, without any expected qualifier that marks it as a non-literal use, has a literal meaning. The term yom in Genesis 1 has no prepositions; it is not used in a construct relation and it has no syntactical indicator expected of an extended, non-literal meaning. Thus, in Genesis 1 yom can mean only a literal "day" of 24 hours. In short, the semantic-syntactical usages of yom, "day," in Genesis 1 as compared with semantic-syntactical usages and linguistic connections of this term in other Old Testament passages where it has an extended meaning, does not allow it to mean a long period of time, an age, or the like. The Hebrew language, its grammar, syntax, linguistic structures as well as its semantic usage allows for only the literal meaning of "day" for the creation "days" of Genesis 1. As I said: Same song, second verse. You haven't provided any reasoning or support for why your translation is right and the rest of the scholars are wrong. Almost 600 messages and the same discussion is just being repeated.
The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 579 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 11:14 AM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 588 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 1:31 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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