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Author Topic:   Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 601 of 607 (585383)
10-07-2010 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 600 by ICANT
10-07-2010 7:05 PM


Re: Point
ICANT writes:

It is a mis-transliteration of the Hebrew word not a definition of the Hebrew word.


That's your claim. Show us where anybody agrees with you.

ICANT writes:

If it was the definition instead of a mis-transliteration then I would accept it as a proper name.


Again, nobody cares what you accept. You're the one who's making extraordinary claims so you're the one who has to back them up. So far, all you've done is demonstrate that you don't understand English. I doubt that that gives anybody much confidence in your understanding of Hebrew.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
This message is a reply to:
 Message 600 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2010 7:05 PM ICANT has not yet responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 602 of 607 (585393)
10-07-2010 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by jar
10-07-2010 6:45 PM


Re: Point
Hi jar,

That's better.

jar writes:

First, what you propose is absolute nonsense.

Maybe, maybe not, that remains to be seen.

jar writes:

Stop and think. Two creations? Genesis 2 at least Genesis 5 talking about two creations?

ABE Genesis 5:1 is talking about the man created in the image/likeness of God.

There is only three verses in the first five chapters of Genesis where the Hebrew word ברא is used.
Genesis 1:1, Heaven and Earth
Verse 21, sea monsters translated great whales.
Verse 27, mankind, male and female.

Nothing else is said to be created.

So there is not two different creation stories, there is two different stories about the beginning.

jar writes:

We know that the physical evidence says your idea is just nuts,

Please present that physical evidence.

jar writes:

Well there seems to be two different understandings, one that tries somehow to make the two stories mesh together,

Yes this is the prominent view that took hold in the 60's. It is what I was always refered to when I presented my view.

The story in chapter one is the creation and the continued story in chapter two just explains more about man and his role.

jar writes:

but the other very common one is that they are two stories from two different customs.

I agree there are two different stories about two different events with a great span of duration between them. I just believe there is a different reason than different customs.

jar writes:

My position is not unusual and is in fact very common and well supported.

I am very familar with the belief that the Bible is not the inspired Word of God, and that it is just the musings of men.

jar writes:

The question of authorship of the different stories is not new, going back at least to Abraham ibn Ezra almost a thousand years ago.

A thousand years prior to that Jesus did not have a problem with who wrote the texts.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Jesus thought Moses existed and did write.

Do you even believe in Jesus?

jar writes:

So there are two essential issues I can see.

One is that your concept is factually wrong, absurd and nothing but fantasy.

Well your assertions are not going to convince me my concept is factually wrong.

Present the evidence.

jar writes:

Second, theologically there is NO support for your interpretation.

As long as the text supports my concept I don't care if the theologians agree with me or not.

I stated in the OP Message 1 I said:

ICANT writes:

In this thread I will affirm that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2.

In this thread the KJV, LXX and Hebrew text will be used.

The Bible will be the final authority as that is what we will be discussing.

I will start the discussion with Genesis 1:1

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

When was the beginning?

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

When was the day God created the Heaven and the Earth?

Genesis 2:4 says these things are the generations of the Heaven and the Earth whenever God created them.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

For the earth to be without form and void of life it had to exist.

Heaven had to exist as the Earth is in the Heaven.

So before the darkness of Genesis 1:2 the Heaven and the Earth existed at evening.

Do you disagree that the text says what I have presented?

If you do please explain what is wrong.

Remember it makes no difference who wrote it, or whether it is true or false. Whether it is facts or allagory.

The only thing that matters is whether it is recorded in the KJV Bible.

If you have a question about the definition of day it is recorded in:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

God called light day.

God called darkness night.

God called a combination of light and darkness day.

God said the evening of the light period and the dark period that ended with morning was day one.

There was no day before day one.

Please feel free to show me where the KJV Bible does not say the things I have presented.

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : ABE line


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by jar, posted 10-07-2010 6:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by jar, posted 10-07-2010 9:53 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 604 by ringo, posted 10-07-2010 10:12 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31201
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 603 of 607 (585394)
10-07-2010 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by ICANT
10-07-2010 9:46 PM


nonsense and fables.
The point is that the stories are factually wrong, not what the stories say and that your idea is simply nonsense.

The physical evidence is that the earth is about 4-5 billion years old. There is NO evidence of some earlier creation where humans were created and then destroyed, in fact all of the evidence is says that humans never appear until pretty recently.

There is absolute proof that the Biblical Flood never happened as I have given you in the past.

I'm sorry but you are just spouting nonsense.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2010 9:46 PM ICANT has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 604 of 607 (585395)
10-07-2010 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by ICANT
10-07-2010 9:46 PM


Re: Point
ICANT writes:

Do you disagree that the text says what I have presented?

If you do please explain what is wrong.


The whole thread explains what is wrong. You simply don't understand what the text says.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2010 9:46 PM ICANT has not yet responded

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 605 of 607 (585400)
10-08-2010 6:48 AM


Time for Summaries
Since the discussion has gone around at least twice if not more, I feel it is time for summaries from those who wish to make a final point concerning ICANT's theory in Message 1.

Please only provide summaries, then the thread will be closed.

Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 thread.

Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.

Thank you
AdminPD ***


ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 606 of 607 (585422)
10-08-2010 9:27 AM


Summary
Hi Contributors,

In Message 1 I said:

ICANT writes:

In this thread I will affirm that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2.

In this thread the KJV, LXX and Hebrew text will be used.

The Bible will be the final authority as that is what we will be discussing.

I will start the discussion with Genesis 1:1

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is a declarative statement of completed action.

I do not know when the beginning was.

All I know is in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and it was a completed product there was nothing that had to be created as God had created it to be inhabited.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.

The Hebrew word tohuw translated vain here is the same word used in Genesis 1:2 describing the condition of the earth at that time.

Therefore Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3 does not explain what took place in Genesis 1:1.

In Message 70 I said:

ICANT writes:

What difference does it make Whether the Bible is the literal word of God or not to the affirmations I made in the OP?

In this thread I am not affirming the Bible being the literal word of God.

I am affirming there is a creation story in Genesis 1:2-31.

I am affirming there is a creation story in Genesis chapter 2.

As recorded in the KJV Bible and supported by the LXX, and Hebrew text.

ICANT writes:

I know from verse 1 the heaven and the earth was (bara) created.

I know from verse 2 it had become uninhabitable as it was covered with water.

I know from verse 3 God caused light to be on the earth. It says nothing about Him (bara) creating the light. He just made it visible.

I know from verse 4 God divided the light from the darkness. It was dark on half of the earth and light on the other half of the earth.

I know from verse 5 God called the light day and the darkness night. It also tells me a light period and a dark period equals one day.

The light period of Genesis 1:1 and the dark period that ended with the light period of the second day was declared the first day.

I know from verse 6, 7, and 8 that God separated the waters from the uplifted waters and called that atmosphere heaven. This is where the birds and our airplanes fly.

I know from verse 8 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the first day and ended with the light period of the third day was the second day.

I know from verse 9 that God caused all the water to gather in one place and let dry land appear as it is shown in my avatar.

I know from verse 10 that God called the dry land earth and the water sea.

So far nothing has been created only rearranged.

I know from verse 11 that God had the earth bring forth grass, herbs, and fruit trees, from their seed which was upon the earth.

I know from verse 12 that the earth obeyed and produced grass, herbs, and fruit trees.

I know from verse 13 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the second day and ended with the light period of the fourth day was the third day.

I know from verse 14 and 15 that God caused visible lights in the heavens to be for signs and seasons, days and years and to give light upon the earth.

I know from verse 16, 17 and 18 that God caused two great lights to be visible on earth one to rule the day and one to rule the night. He also caused the stars to be visible on earth.

Still nothing has been (bara) created they were only made visible on earth.

I know from verse 19 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the third day and ended with the light period of the fifth day was the fourth day.

I know from verse 20 that God caused the waters to bring forth water creatures and fowl to fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Still nothing (bara) created.

I know from verse 21 that God (bara) created great whales.

The first thing created that was not created in Genesis 1:1.

I know from verse 22 that God blessed them and told them to multiply and fill the waters and the fowl to multiply on the earth.

I know from verse 23 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the fourth day and ended with the light period of the sixth day was the fifth day.

I know from verse 24 and 25 God called the living creature, cattle, creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind. That means they had already existed to come forth after their kind.

I know from verse 26 and 27 that God (bara) created mankind in His image male and female He created them. Did He create 2 or a thousand there is no way to know as the scripture does not say. He gave mankind dominion over the creatures on earth.

I know from verse 28 God blessed them and told them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it.

I know from verse 29 that God told them they could eat of every herb bearing seed and every tree that yielded fruit with a seed. No fruit of any tree was forbidden to mankind.

I know from verse 30 that the fowl of the air and every thing that creepeth on the earth that every green herb was given for meat.

I know from verse 31 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the fifth day and ended with the light period of the seventh day was the sixth day.

I am affirming these things are written in Genesis chapter 1 in the KJV Bible, supported by the Lxx, and the Hebrew texts.

Do you or anyone else have any rebuttal to what I have presented?

I am affirming the following creation story took place and is recorded in Genesis chapter 2.

ICANT writes:

Moses writes:

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

I know from this verse that the following things are the history of the creation of the heaven and the earth in Genesis 1:1.

I know from Genesis 1:1 That the heaven and the earth was created in the beginning. It was already in existence when Genesis 1:2 took place. Therefore it was not created during the 6 days described in Genesis 1:2-31.

Verse 4 of chapter 2 is the beginning of the history of what happened in the day (light period) the heaven and the earth was created.

I know from verse 5 there was no life on earth. There was no man, plant, tree, or herb of the field and it had not rained on the earth.

I know from verse 6 God caused the earth to be water from a mist that came from underground.

I know from verse 7 the first life form on earth was man that God formed a man of the dust of the ground.
I also know God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and that man became a living being.

I know from verse 8 Eden existed and God planted a garden eastward in Eden. God then put the man in this garden.

I know from verse 9 God caused every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food to grow. He also provided the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I know from verse 10 that a river went out of Eden to water the garden. After watering the garden it divided into 4 rivers.
I know from verses 11-14 some information about these rivers. I don't know the purpose of these verses.

I know from verse 15 that God gave the man He had formed from the dust of the ground a job. He was to dress the garden and keep it.

I know from verses 16 and 17 that the man was told he could eat of every tree of the garden except he could not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I also know that he was told if he did eat of that tree he would die the same day. It does not say if God explained what death was but since God is just He had to explain it to the man.

I know from verse 18 God said it was not good for man to be alone and He said He would make him an help meet.

I know from verse 19 God formed every animal and every fowl from the ground. He then brought them to the man to see what he would call them.

I know from verse 20 the man gave names to all cattle, all fowl, and the beast of the field. But God had not made a help meet for the man yet.

I know from verse 21 God removed a rib from the man.

I know from verse 22 God cloned a woman from the rib He had taken from the man, and brought her to him.

That concluded the creation events recorded in this history. But there is much history left.

I know from verse 23 that the man said this is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh and that she would be called woman.

I know from verse 24 the man said because of this man will leave home and cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh.

I know from verse 25 they were naked and were not ashamed. They lived in perfect inn once.

I know at this time there had been no water creatures created.

I know at this time there is no mention of seas.

I know that this is the record of what happened in Genesis 1:1 as Genesis 2:4 declares that it is.

I am affirming these things are written in Genesis chapter 2 in the KJV Bible, supported by the Lxx, and the Hebrew texts.

Do you or anyone else have any rebuttal to what I have presented?

I am prepared to defend my affirmations.

I am still prepared to defend my affirmations, should anyone care to rebutt them in another thread.

There was many side tracks in the thread.

Peg, ringo and others tried to tell me that יןם was something other than what God declared it to be in Genesis 1:5.

1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

God declared a period of light as יןם

God declared a period of light combined with a period of darkness as יןם day one.

ringo has tried to convince me that אדם is a proper English name.

But the Hebrew word There are 3 letters in the Hebrew word אדם

א A (Alef)
ד..D (Dalet)
ם....M (Final Mem)

The transliteration of the text is adm.

This is the Hebrew word used in Genesis 5:1 it is the second word in the second line of the Hebrew text found Here Right side.

You can find the Alphabet Here

The Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:27 adds the ב

ב (He)
א A (Alef)
ד..D (Dalet)
ם....M (Final Mem)

The transliteration of the text is hadm.

You can find the Hebrew text Here.

Here the word is the first combined word in the second line. Right side.

Here the word translated man has the את prefix that is the 1) sign of the definite direct object, not translated in English but generally preceding and indicating the accusative.

Everybody likes to tell me I am wrong but in 605 posts nobody even tried to present any rebuttal to my affirmations.

They did tell me I was wrong and gave a lot of opinions on why I was wrong.

Now I invite anyone to start a thread and rebut what I affirmed Here in this thread.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 607 of 607 (585456)
10-08-2010 11:53 AM


The entire hypotheis is based on ICANT's misunderstanding of English.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
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