I.D. proponents: Make up your mind!

Really, now, tesla.Gods and creationism are religion. There is no separating them.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Hmmm...let's find out.F=(dp/dt)+Godp=mvF=(dmv/dt)+GodF=m(dv/dt)+Goddv/dt=aF=ma+GodFrom empirical experiment we know that:A 1,000 kg object accelerated to 0.5 m/s/s yields a force of 500 newtons.1000(0.5)+God=500500+God=500500+God-500=500-500God=0Well there you go. God is nothing.Apparently, adding god to newton is very accurate indeed.Edited by AZPaul3, : error

Sorry, tesla, but god = religion by definition. You do not get to change that no matter how hard you believe. Same for Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. You have shown us that repeatedly.

Your link is incomplete. You need to give the entire link, not just an abbreviated form. But it's ok. I found the paper hereYou did not read, or did not understand, the paper. It does not say what you suppose. Try again. It is irrelevant because "vacuum" has no intrinsic force. See Message 190

Ok. But the link I found was germane to the subject. Your link is a math tutorial. It says nothing about vacuum or pressure. It certainly does not justify your continued insistence that the Universe must have an edge. There is some major disconnect here, tesla. Your link does not address the subject you seem to think. This is correct. The atoms/molecules outside the contained vacuum exert pressure on the wall of the chamber. Since there are no, or fewer, atoms inside the container their pressure outward on the walls is less. There is a differential in pressure exerted on the wall between the atoms inside the container and those outside the container. This differential we define as vacuum. This is not correct.First, the Earth's gravity extends into space, past the moon and well beyond. The gravity of the Sun permeates the space throughout the entire solar system and well onto its stellar neighbors. The space around Earth is chuck FULL of gravity fields criss crossing from every direction from every massive thing in our galaxy and beyond.Second, What is doing this "pulling" you insist upon? The "vacuum" of space? No, tesla. Vacuum has no "pull."The gravity of the Sun, Moon, planets, galaxy, etc., does, in fact, exert a "pull" on our atmosphere and us, but, this slight tug is massively overpowered by the gravity of Earth since it is much, much closer. The vacuum of space has no force, has no power. From where? From what?Other than more gravity from other celestial objects which is very minor in comparison, WHY "must there be some pull against it."?Again, tesla, the so called "vacuum" of space has no force. No. Gravity does not maintain the composition of the elements. EM, strong and weak nuclear forces do that. Except when gravity becomes so strong like in a neutron star or black hole, the structure of the elements, ALL OF THEM, remain stable (give or take an isotope or two). And in the extreme environments of neutron stars and black holes the integrity of the atom is demolished, they are crushed into their constituent parts, they are destroyed. Wrong. Gravity has no vacuum, tesla. Vacuum is not gravity. Gravity is not vacuum. Nor is either a constituent part of the other.[abe]Gravity is the force that keeps the atmosphere in place, to be sure, and is responsible for the phenomenon of atmospheric pressure, but this cannot be conflated with the idea that gravity and vacuum are equivalent or that gravity somehow exhibits properties usually associated with vacuum.[/abe]And all of the elements, all of them, tesla, here, there, everywhere, exist just fine in the massive gravity of Jupiter as well as in the minor gravity of Earth.The size of an atom, the number of protons, neutrons it possesses and its stability or radioactivity have nothing to do with the strength of gravity.EXCEPT within stellar nucleogenesis where gravity plays a major role in causing fusion.You did know, didn't you, tesla, that, other than hydrogen and some small bits of helium, all the other elements that exist in the Universe, ALL OF THEM, tesla, are made in the fires of Suns and the explosions of stars? Yes. I am. Both of these can be changed by your doing real research, getting a real education, and then engaging educated brain BEFORE sticking foot in mouth.Edited by AZPaul3, : add edit

While the theories developed by science are by necessity tentative, the facts are not. Facts like the CMB and the Supernova data. The theories must account for the facts. The facts will not bow to theories.Vacuum, being a lesser concentration of matter, has no intrinsic power since it is a description of a state and not a thing on its own volition. This is fact.Even so, theory, properly constructed and based on fact, is a powerful model of reality and yields answers that hold and can reveal hidden facts like the Universe having no edge whether we like the answers or not. Based on your feelings. No facts, no understanding, no model, no math, and with a continued willful misconstruction of what vacuum is. First "data" are facts. It is the theory explaining the facts that is tentative.But to the greater question, a little history for explanation.We have seen what could arguably be the greatest scientific mind in all humanity devolve to magic and superstition when the facts were too few, the science too young, to give him the answers he sought. Answers that later scientists, building on his work, showed devoid of such nonsense.We have seen another of the greatest scientific minds alter his equations because he did not like what his fact-based theory was showing him leading to the the greatest blunder of his career.We saw the world sit in great hope when two young men announced a most startling discovery. A discovery that literally hundreds of scientists tested and soon showed to be false.We have seen the legions of scientists test and re-test, question and re-test yet again, every facet of every experiment of every science over these past few centuries.We have seen the methods of science advance the benefit of all humanity in the last 300+ years where the prior 10,000 years of personality and superstition gave us nothing but despair and blood.I, myself, do not have the intellect to comprehend all the details of the cosmological models. Apparently, neither do you. What I do have that you do not, from history and my own experiences, is confidence in the methods.I, myself, cannot repeat the double-slit experiments or analyze all the Supernova data. What I have is confidence in the consensus of thousands of life-long experts who, in keeping with the scientific method, have tested and re-tested, scrutinized and re-analyzed all, over the last centuries.You apparently think so much of this is "misunderstood" because it doesn't fit your "feelings." You have no conception of the power you disparage here.And when the consensus of the experts improves and changes with new facts and new understanding, as has happened in my lifetime with the CMB and accelerated expansion, then I must change as well. I improve my knowledge based upon the improved and verified knowledge of others.I have great confidence in the efficacy of science. I have great confidence in the scientific method to evidence reality. I have great confidence in science to correct errors. All this because I have seen it.I have seen the power of the method. Yes, tesla, with appropriate skepticism, I tow the scientific line. This is good. Go for it.The evidence is out there for you, tesla. Every experiment, all the raw data, every assumption, all the analysis, all the logic, every re-test, every objection, every open question, all of it is available to you.The problem is you need the intellectual capacity to understand. You have to comprehend the math, tesla. Without the math you have and can do nothing. Without the math you cannot make a challenge to anything. I do not believe you possess these skills.But, if you can develop them, when you understand the data behind the model, and the model behind the math, then you will understand why cosmologists say the Universe cannot have any edge. You will understand why physicists say vacuum has no intrinsic power.You will understand why the facts mean everything, why the theories are so powerful, and why your feelings mean nothing. You think my posts are arrogant?Yet you walk in here armed with nothing but your feelings, no training, no education, no comprehension of what came before you, no math, no model, no data, and seek to tell generations, tens of thousands of the worlds most intelligent people, experts in life-long study, that they "misunderstand", that they are wrong?You want to look upon the face of arrogance, tesla? Look in the mirror.