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Author Topic:   I.D. proponents: Make up your mind!
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2358 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 22 of 62 (563832)
06-07-2010 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by tesla
06-06-2010 9:38 PM


Re: It's the evidence...
tesla writes:
Just because i believe the universe was created doesn't mean i cant be good at science.
People who believe that the creator of the universe takes an active interest in them personally, to the extent that they believe/expect particular real-world outcomes in their lives to result from God's actions in response to their prayers, must either maintain a "wall of separation" between their religious faith and their objective/science-like activities, or else fail pretty badly at science.
Maybe you're not one of those people who believe in "the efficacy of prayer", and you don't consider your creator to be an entity that actively intervenes in your life according to your expressed desires. If so, then you've passed one of the major obstructions that religion puts in the way of both scientific and personal progress.
But the ability to do good science requires more than that. An essential skill that you seem to have trouble with is the ability to consistently use terminology in accordance with accepted or specified definitions -- that is, to maintain accuracy in your usage of terms, avoiding ambiguity and equivocation.
It is worse when a scientist is so closed minded they take the position of "there is no God" instead of " i don't know if there is a God."
If you're talking about individual personalities who are commenting on their personal atheism or agnosticism, you're entitled to your own opinion that one notion is worse than the other. But if you're talking about the practice of scientific inquiry and research, it's a moot distinction.
Whether or not there is a God, science is concerned with understanding natural processes and explaining them in natural terms that can be confirmed by independent observation, without reference to any religious doctrine. This is not a matter of "anti-religious bias", as the ID-proponentists claim; it's just a very simple and effective set of ground rules for answering questions and resolving disputes: let the evidence be the guide. {AbE: And when the evidence is insufficient to guide you, get more and better evidence.}
When an explanation appeals to divine/supernatural agency, it ceases to be a scientific explanation, by definition, because it has failed to provide a fully observational basis for its assertions. You can't be good at science if you don't understand this.
Edited by Otto Tellick, : (addition as noted in next-to-last paragraph)
Edited by Otto Tellick, : (fixed incorrect position of added text)

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by tesla, posted 06-06-2010 9:38 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by tesla, posted 06-10-2010 8:05 AM Otto Tellick has replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2358 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 44 of 62 (564712)
06-11-2010 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by tesla
06-10-2010 8:05 AM


Re: It's the evidence...
Here's what I said:
quote:
People who believe that the creator of the universe takes an active interest in ... their prayers, must either maintain a "wall of separation" between their religious faith and their objective/science-like activities, or else fail pretty badly at science.
and here's what tesla says:
tesla writes:
I do believe in prayer.
and, near the beginning of the thread:
telsa writes:
There will be no conflict between the truth of God, and true science. because God established all things, so then what we do study in science speaks for God.
QED.
Honestly, tesla, all you are doing is equivocating about the term "God", making it ultimately meaningless. All your other circumlocutions about how scientists are "ignorant" because they are not talking about stuff that is "supernatural" (which to you means "natural" somehow, because only you understand this) yield the same result.
I've seen you say, in another thread, words to the effect of "when something is not understood, people tend to view it as supernatural; then, when they come to understand it, they see that it actually is natural". I have no problem with that sort of statement. I think it's quite accurate and astute. But for reasons I can't understand, you apparently extend it to mean that scientists need to acknowledge "supernatural" causes in their research, and that everything we understand to be "natural" is really "supernatural". That's meaningless.
So what sorts of divine, supernatural interventions to you look forward to as a result of your prayers? Are the results always as you would intend? Do you tend to wait a long time for expected results, or do you tend to ask for results that have a reasonably good likelihood of happening anyway?

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by tesla, posted 06-10-2010 8:05 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by tesla, posted 06-13-2010 5:25 PM Otto Tellick has not replied

  
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