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Author Topic:   Question on how Evolution works to produce new characteristics
Europa
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 06-05-2010


Message 61 of 104 (564482)
06-10-2010 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Huntard
06-10-2010 6:15 PM


Sense is a very bad way of determining truth.
I agree.
But if we do not rely on sense, we should see evidence. Do we have the evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Huntard, posted 06-10-2010 6:15 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Huntard, posted 06-10-2010 6:19 PM Europa has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 62 of 104 (564483)
06-10-2010 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:04 PM


Re: Cyanobacteria -- the ultimate "living fossil"?
Europa writes:
Logically, it is also difficult o believe that for one population the environment is more or less the same for millions of years. Now Huntard will say this is an argument from incredulity. lol.
Do you often laugh when true things are said? what is "logically difficult to believe" to you is irrelevant, what the evidence shows to be the case is. So yes, this is a logical fallacy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:04 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:19 PM Huntard has not replied

  
Europa
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 06-05-2010


Message 63 of 104 (564484)
06-10-2010 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Huntard
06-10-2010 6:18 PM


Re: Cyanobacteria -- the ultimate "living fossil"?
what is "logically difficult to believe" to you is irrelevant, what the evidence shows to be the case is.
okay.
But where is the evidence?
I am waiting for you to show this evidence to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Huntard, posted 06-10-2010 6:18 PM Huntard has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 64 of 104 (564485)
06-10-2010 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:18 PM


Europa writes:
I agree.
But if we do not rely on sense, we should see evidence.
Precisely. In fact, we should always rely on the evidence.
Do we have the evidence?
For?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:18 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:22 PM Huntard has not replied

  
Europa
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 06-05-2010


Message 65 of 104 (564486)
06-10-2010 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Huntard
06-10-2010 6:19 PM


Do we have the evidence?
For?
Evidence to say the environment of 'living fossils' did not change much?
Edited by Europa, : No reason given.
Edited by Europa, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Huntard, posted 06-10-2010 6:19 PM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 6:27 PM Europa has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 66 of 104 (564488)
06-10-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:04 PM


Re: Cyanobacteria -- the ultimate "living fossil"?
Logically, it is also difficult o believe that for one population the environment is more or less the same for millions of years.
Prefacing a remark with the word "logically" does not make it logical; some sort of reasoning is also required.
One thing to bear in mind is that species are mobile (even a plant species, qua species, is mobile by dispersal of its seeds). And this allows species to stay in the same environment even when environmental changes occur. For example, the evidence shows that during Ice Ages, species requiring a temperate climate neither evolved nor went extinct. They just moved south. When the glaciers retreated, they moved back north.
(ABE: I note that you have acknowledged this point in post #60; I began writing this post before you'd posted #60.)
Now Huntard will say this is an argument from incredulity.
Yes.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:04 PM Europa has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 67 of 104 (564490)
06-10-2010 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:22 PM


Evidence to say the environment of 'living fossils' did not change much?
Pick one in particular, and we'll discuss it.
Bear in mind that the term "living fossil" does not imply prolonged morphological stasis, which is what you actually want to talk about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:22 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 68 of 104 (564492)
06-10-2010 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:15 PM


Do you guys honestly believe that the environment can remain similar for an organism for 200 million years? I agree that the organism can also move to what environment that suits him. So the environment of an organism is not on a fixed piece of land area.
Still, to believe that an organism managed to live in an unchanging environment for 200 million years, while the others could not do it, is so counter intuitive for me.
However, the fact is that the evidence shows that some types of organism have remained relatively unchanged (at least morphologically) over long periods of time without going extinct. And this means that there must, throughout that period, always have been some environment that was within their tolerance, otherwise they would have gone extinct, wouldn't they?
Now that is logic. The fact that stromatolites (for example) have survived for hundreds of millions of years does in fact prove that for hundreds of millions of years there must have been, at any particular time in this interval, some place on Earth in which stromatolites could survive.
So yes, I "honestly believe" that it is possible, because the evidence shows that it has actually happened; and things that happen are of course possible.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:15 PM Europa has not replied

  
Europa
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 06-05-2010


Message 69 of 104 (564497)
06-10-2010 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Dr Adequate
06-10-2010 6:27 PM


Bear in mind that the term "living fossil" does not imply prolonged morphological stasis, which is what you actually want to talk about.
Well doctor Adequate, according to Katsuhiko Yoshida,
"Living fossils are taxonomic groups surviving for a long time without any remarkable morphological change." Don't know why you want to redefine what a living fossil is. http://paleobiol.geoscienceworld.org/...nt/abstract/28/4/464
Pick one in particular, and we'll discuss it.
Since you insist, please tell me how the cockroach managed to remain a cockroach for hundreds of millions of years.
Edited by Europa, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 6:27 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:58 PM Europa has not replied
 Message 71 by Wounded King, posted 06-10-2010 6:59 PM Europa has replied
 Message 73 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 7:16 PM Europa has replied

  
Europa
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 06-05-2010


Message 70 of 104 (564500)
06-10-2010 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:49 PM


However, the fact is that the evidence shows that some types of organism have remained relatively unchanged (at least morphologically) over long periods of time without going extinct. And this means that there must, throughout that period, always have been some environment that was within their tolerance, otherwise they would have gone extinct, wouldn't they?
Now that is logic. The fact that stromatolites (for example) have survived for hundreds of millions of years does in fact prove that for hundreds of millions of years there must have been, at any particular time in this interval, some place on Earth in which stromatolites could survive.
So yes, I "honestly believe" that it is possible, because the evidence shows that it has actually happened; and things that happen are of course possible.
Now, now, now. doctor.
You started with an explanation.
Then you called it logic.
And in the end you are calling it evidence.
Huntard told me sense [and probably logic too] is not good enough. We need evidence.
But a mere label of 'evidence' is not enough for me. If it is so, you can label what i called logic also as evidence.
I would still call what you explained an explanation. That explanation unfortunately, for me, is so counter intuitive. When I say it is counter intuitive, you say it is an argument from incredulity. That is what lead me to ask for evidence. Where is the evidence that the environment did not change?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:49 PM Europa has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 7:34 PM Europa has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 71 of 104 (564501)
06-10-2010 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:49 PM


Since you insist, please tell me how the cockroach managed to remain a cockroach for hundreds of millions of years.
Which of the thousands of species of cockroach were you thinking of?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:49 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 7:02 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
Europa
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 06-05-2010


(1)
Message 72 of 104 (564503)
06-10-2010 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Wounded King
06-10-2010 6:59 PM


Hi wounded,
Which of the thousands of species of cockroach were you thinking of?
The one that survived without much morphological change, for the longest duration. lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Wounded King, posted 06-10-2010 6:59 PM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 7:18 PM Europa has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 73 of 104 (564508)
06-10-2010 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:49 PM


Well doctor Adequate, according to Katsuhiko Yoshida,
"Living fossils are taxonomic groups surviving for a long time without any remarkable morphological change." Don't know why you want to redefine what a living fossil is.
But if you are going to take that as a definition of living fossil then a lot of things that people call living fossils aren't living fossils, and you should bear this in mind when selecting your example.
Since you insist, please tell me how the cockroach managed to remain a cockroach for hundreds of millions of years.
"The" cockroach?
From WP:
These earliest cockroach-like fossils ("Blattopterans" or "roachids") are from the Carboniferous period between 354—295 million years ago. However, these fossils differ from modern cockroaches in having long external ovipositors and are the ancestors of mantises as well as modern cockroaches. The first fossils of modern cockroaches with internal ovipositors appear in the early Cretaceous ... Current evidence strongly suggests that termites have evolved directly from true cockroaches, and many authors now consider termites to be an epifamily of cockroaches, as Blattaria excluding Isoptera is not a monophyletic group.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:49 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 7:26 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 74 of 104 (564510)
06-10-2010 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Europa
06-10-2010 7:02 PM


The one that survived without much morphological change, for the longest duration.
And which is that, and how long was the duration?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 7:02 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 7:23 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Europa
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 06-05-2010


Message 75 of 104 (564511)
06-10-2010 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Dr Adequate
06-10-2010 7:18 PM


And which is that, and how long was the duration?
This is info can be researched but this is not important.
You are evading my question.
The cockroach has been around for more than 300 million years. Please give me the evidence that the environment did not change for the cockroach and THAT is why it has been around for more than 300 million years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 7:18 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 8:01 PM Europa has not replied

  
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