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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Polytheistic?
Rahvin
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Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 50 of 375 (563931)
06-07-2010 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Straggler
06-07-2010 10:55 AM


Christianity has a very specific hierarchy of supernatural entities. Obviously their deity sits at the top. Below him are many separate ranks of angels, of which Satan is supposedly a member of the top ranking, just below Yahweh himself.
The deities of other religions are counted as fallen angels deceiving humanity, inaccurate attempts to worship the one true god, or simply the delusions of heathen fools.
In this context, Satan is not a deity, the deities of other religions are not really deities even if their worshipers think they are, and there is in fact only one actual deity. There's no need for equivocation - followers of false deities only believe they are worshiping a god.
It is however essentially an argument via definition - the argument includes as its premise that there is only one deity. The deck is stacked. It's a matter of circular reasoning. "Since there is only one god, all other gods are false and not really gods at all. Since all other gods are not really gods, there is only one god."
I don't think it's very practical or objective to use Christianity's definition of "god," simply because it's only a valid definition for Christians. All non-Abrahamic religions would disagree with them.
Of course, I'm not sure what common definition of a deity could really be agreed on - not one single version is actually based on reality, none are testable to determine accuracy, and so every definition from the Christian one to the Hindu one to the Pastafarian one is equally valid.
I think about all that everyone would agree with is that "gods" always share the following characteristics:
1) their abilities are (or appear) supernatural, vastly exceeding the expected capabilities of any human being. The laws of physics as we know them do not seem to apply in the same way to deities.
2) They are ageless - while some gods apparently die, they do not do so because of old age. Typically the deaths of gods involve violence, especially a world-ending apocalypse
3) gods have some degree of interaction with humanity, especially in the form of human worship
4) gods tend to be the "top of the totem pole" in terms of relative power to other supernatural entities within the same belief system. For example, while a fallen angel being worshipped by humans or even a poltergeist (a ghost capable of moving objects) would qualify under criteria 1-4, they are "less powerful" than the deities of those who typically believe in them, and therefore are not deities themselves. Hierarchy within a pantheon of deities is frequently present, but even the lowest deity is still typically regarded as "more powerful" than any non-deity. There is also no objective method or reasoning to determine relative power and abilities.
That's still pretty loose, but I don't see how to be more specific. Yahweh and all his angels could easily be considered to be an entire pantheon of gods, with Yahweh simply sitting at the top. Or angels could be considered to be fundamentally different than Yahweh (Christians typically use the property of having been created as the determining factor - Yahweh was not created, and he created everything else, and only that which itself was not created is a deity, with everything else a lesser being, etc). There just isn't an objective way to compare supernatural entities, especially across multiple belief systems.
That's why I think the entire argument is rather pointless - it's impossible to make a real determination over whether Christianity is actually monotheistic or polytheistic or not, simply because there is no way to objectively define "deities" that does not either stack the deck such that the Christian god is the only deity by definition, or such that other supernatural entities are not considered "deities" despite no functional difference.
To me, it seems like this is more an argument over whether Superman or Batman would win in a fight - people who like Superman will point out that he's able to punch Batman into a bloody smear with his pinky finger, while people who like Batman will point our that he has access to Kryptonite, always has a plan for everything including a rampaging Superman, and has beaten Superman in comics before. The fact of the matter is simply that it's impossible to make an objective assessment when comparing fictional characters - in the case of Batman and Superman, the one who "wins" in a fight is the determination of the authors as needed for the story, and has nothing to do with anything our hypothetical groups of nerds would rage about.
So too with deities. There's nothing objective to base a discussion around, and so you can't really make a determination about what is or is not a deity (and therefore which religions are monotheistic or polytheistic or even atheistic) beyond the stated claims of each religion's followers. Christians say that Yahweh is a deity while Satan is not; ancient Greeks identify Zeus, Aries, Poseidon, etc. all as deities, but exclude the Titans or the Fates or other supernatural entities.
I think a far more interesting conversation would be to question whether modern monotheistic religions have polytheistic roots from an archeological and anthropological standpoint.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Straggler, posted 06-07-2010 10:55 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Straggler, posted 06-07-2010 1:53 PM Rahvin has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 62 of 375 (563970)
06-07-2010 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Straggler
06-07-2010 1:53 PM


Re: Internally Inconsistent
When Christians say that there is widespread belief in gods what definition of god are they using and how can it possibly exclude Satan as meeting whatever criteria are being imposed?
Indeed. The argument seems to be popular because of the limited amount of thought involved - because cultures throughout history have "believed in god(s)," surely this means that some form of god should exist - they couldn't all be deluded, how else could one explain such a broad similarity of belief?
The problem with such a line of reasoning is that the comparison of beliefs stops at the word "god." Each culture's definition of "god" tends to vary wildly. You certainly cannot compare Zeus with Yahweh with Quetzalcoatl. They have next to nothing in common beyond being "supernatural" and having human worshipers - which brings us back to the question, "what's a god, anyway?" If you're argument rests on commonality of belief, those beliefs had damned better have lots in common beyond the word "god."
Of course, even an argument suggesting that commonality of belief is evidence for actuality is simply an absurd argument from popularity in itself. Nearly everyone across countless independent cultures thought the Earth was flat...and that was simply evidence that the Earth looks flat from a local perspective if you don't think too hard about common observations suggesting curvature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Straggler, posted 06-07-2010 1:53 PM Straggler has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 65 of 375 (563979)
06-07-2010 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Woodsy
06-07-2010 2:43 PM


Re: why not look at behaviour
Christians sure behave as if they believed in a multiplicity of gods. They do pray to saints and Mary. They do expect angels to aid them.
All that guff about the trinity is just used to hide the presence of multiple gods in their old book. (And to keep people in line by keeping them confused.)
Well, not all Christians pray to saints.
Determining actual belief based on actions and expectations leads down an unfortunate road for theists.
By their actions, they anticipate as if no gods exist.
As an example, I'll use our friend, the Immaterial Pink Unicorn.
If I say that the Immaterial Pink Unicorn is in a stable down the road, you'll want to go take a look. I respond "you can't see it, it's invisible." You'll then want to touch it, to confirm that this invisible unicorn is present. "But it's intangible, your hand will pass right through," I'll respond. I am anticipating as if the unicorn does not exist; what I expect to happen in any test is identical to the unicorn not existing at all. It's what you anticipate to happen when your beliefs are not supported that shows what you actually believe.
Theists tend to behave the same way. Unanswered prayer? "God works in mysterious ways." Thorough double-blind study showing no statistically significant effect of prayer or religion on recovery from illness? "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." Angel didn't save your son from that car wreck? "God wanted to take him home." What they expect to happen in any given test is identical to what would happen if no gods existed.
The actions and expectations of the faithful show that they think it is good to believe, but that they do not actually believe, in any deity at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Woodsy, posted 06-07-2010 2:43 PM Woodsy has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 66 of 375 (563982)
06-07-2010 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Straggler
06-07-2010 2:54 PM


Re: Monotheism - Theistic Grand Unified Theory
From the Wiki page on Elohim:
quote:
The term is clearly related to Northwest Semitic ʾēl "god", but it contains the addition of the heh as third radical to the biconsonantal root. Discussions of the etymology of elohim essentially concern this expansion. An exact cognate outside of Hebrew is found in Ugaritic ʾlhm, the family of El, the creator god and chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon, and in Arabic ʾilāh "god, deity". Eloah (the extended root ʾlh) does not have any clear etymology.[3] The word ʾel itself is usually derived from a root meaning "to be strong".
Just as a quickie as I'm short on time, my understanding is that ethnic Hebrews are an offshoot of the indigenous Canaanites (descending from those whom the Bible says they conquered). The terminology and mythology of Genesis seems to borrow extensively from other older cultures in that area (such as the Epic of Gilgamesh). Genesis and Exodus (off the top of my head) use language that acknowledges other gods and simply states Elohim's superiority over them and demands exclusivity of worship. Only much later with Christianity is the actual existence of other deities denied and replaced with the idea of the deception of fallen angels.
It seems to me that the Hebrews were simply one cultural branch of the Canaanites who exclusively worshiped their tribal deity (while not claiming that theirs was the only deity), and that this exclusivity of worship gradually turned to belief in dominance over other deities, and finally the idea that the tribal deity was in fact the only real deity, and all others were simply pretenders.
But that's my take on the (admittedly limited) anthropological evidence I'm aware of, and the etymology of relevant words like "Elohim," as described above. I'd love to hear from people more well-read on the subject than I.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Straggler, posted 06-07-2010 2:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Straggler, posted 06-08-2010 8:43 AM Rahvin has not replied

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