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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Polytheistic?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 375 (564627)
06-11-2010 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
06-06-2010 6:41 AM


Re: Is Christianity Polytheistic?
But they are just being inconsistent in their use of the term "god".
One would first have to be able to define God, and quite frankly, that's a slippery slope.
To accept Apollo as an example of a god concept in a polytheistic belief system but to deny that the concept of Satan in biblical Christianity is anything other than the same is just equivocation.
It sounds as if you are the one that is equivocating, since it is you saying that angels and Apollo are all gods, if not demi-gods.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 06-06-2010 6:41 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 12:43 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 375 (564632)
06-11-2010 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Straggler
06-11-2010 12:09 PM


Compartmentalising God
Of course not by Christians. But do Christians need to worship, or even believe in the existence of, Apollo in order to recognise Apollo as a god concept?
What exactly are you trying to prove here? Please clarify your intentions. Are you saying that Christianity is actually rooted in polytheistic beliefs, or that Christians aren't recognising that Satan is actually a god?
aside from Christian assertion and protestation in what sense does the concept of Satan not qualify as such?
What is your assertion that Satan should be viewed as a god? That's the better question. The answer to your questions is lacking. Christians don't view Satan as a god because according to dogma he's an angel, albeit, fallen.
To literalistic Satanists, Satan is a god. So to them Satan is a god. All that matters is the context, seems to me. Because really we're dealing with beliefs, not objective facts. In order to arbitrate what God is or isn't, or what God should be or should not be, we'd first have to prove the existence of God. Therein lies the crux.
Of course Christians are going to rebrand the term god to uphold their own self proclaimed assertions of monotheism. But to anyone not applying the specific Christian definition, including Christians when they are discussing theism more objectively, biblical Christianity is polytheistic. Not monotheistic.
It sounds like you are taking certain attributes and have come up with what you personally as god-like attributes. Apparently you want this to be univeral -- that we all see things as you do. God is a very broad and open term, seems to me, and you don't have the copywrite on compartmentalising God.
I'm fairly certain this is what people are taking exception to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 12:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 1:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 375 (564634)
06-11-2010 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Straggler
06-11-2010 12:43 PM


Re: Is Christianity Polytheistic?
We can recognise theism and god concepts in vastly diverse cultures, ancient and modern, without recourse to the particular distinctions of specific religions or the need for those believers to use the English word "god".
How do we do this?
Yes, and other cultures have concepts of hell and demons too. One could juxtapose the Hellenic version of Hades with the Budhist version of hell and find both similarities and dissimilarities. It doesn't mean anything though.
For Faith, she would say that Allah is actually a demon posing as a God. It's a completely vacuous and unsubstantiated assertion, but those are her beliefs.
That Allah shares god-like status to some, but demonic status to others doesn't make either claim true or false.
And aside from Christian assertion and protestation in what sense does the concept of Satan not qualify as such?
What universal characteristic are you looking for that the whole world should be united in seeing Satan as a God? That's what I'm saying. No one is the arbiter, least of all, you.
So what precisely is the point you're trying to make?

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 12:43 PM Straggler has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 375 (564640)
06-11-2010 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Straggler
06-11-2010 1:22 PM


Re: Compartmentalising God
So is Slevesque talking about the Christian God in these examples? If not what concept of god is he talking about? And why would Satan be discluded from that?
Why not a teacup, for good measure? Anyone could attribute anything as god-like. The point is, it doesn't matter.
Besides, many Christians do claim that Satan is the "God of this world," meaning he has a foothold on the earthly and temporal realm, whereas God's realm is spiritual.
What I want to know is how anyone can recognise theism or god concepts in other cultures without also concluding that Satan is just such a concept.
Because their religious books state that Satan is an angel, not a God. You keep taking attributes of the supernatural and are placing them on par with being God.
If you are asking whether or not Christianity is just an example of hybrid religions synthesizing in to what we know today as Christianity, I think there is room for the argument. But you are taking belief and expecting everyone to know what you are saying is an object fact.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 1:22 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Modulous, posted 06-11-2010 1:58 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 149 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 2:02 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 375 (564993)
06-14-2010 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Straggler
06-12-2010 1:43 AM


Re: Thanks
Are you suggesting we haven't identified god concepts in different cultures?
The issue is that you are taking a very large inferrential leap here. You are essentially claiming that because Satan has attributes that could be likened to God, that we must therefore conclude that Christianity is polytheistic.
That's a very large jump in reasoning.
Could it be possible that Christianity stole or borrowed from polytheistic religions? Yes, I think one could make a reasonable case for that. But you are saying that because Satan has supernatural elements to him, he's therefore a god by your standards, without taking in to account what the story attributes to him.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2010 1:43 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Straggler, posted 06-14-2010 11:55 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 375 (565177)
06-15-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Straggler
06-14-2010 11:55 AM


Re: Joe The Satanist - Is He Polytheistic?
How do anthropologists objectively recognise forms of theism and concepts of gods?
Are listening at all? That is irrelevant in this case since there are several books detailing what Satan is.
How could they possibly not conclude that the whole Yahweh/Christ Vs Satan/Anti-Christ thing is anything but good gods vs bad gods regardless of what labels the particular followers of any individual religion might partisanly assert?
These useless hypothetical scenarios are meaningless because they don't apply to the context of what is discussed. If alien anthropologist had a giant fucking book telling you what Satan is, then digging around in the dirt for figurines would be pointless, yes?
You keep overlooking the 2-ton elephant in the room, while pointing to a fly on its ass.
You seem determined to take self asserted distinctions of nomenclature designed by Christians
It's not desinged by Christians. The story of Satan predates Christianity, and "christians" didn't write the bible. Jews did.
Why would anyone aside from Christians attempting to delude themselves about the polytheistic roots of their own religion take any notice of such internal and blatantly partisan distinctions at all?
Why are 3 or 4 non-Christians telling you otherwise, unless it's because your reasoning is faulty?
The only reason Christianity is nominally monotheistic is because it has gone through a process of My god is better than your god. In fact your god is so rubbish and mine so wonderful that we are not even going to call your god a god anymore. Nah nah nah nah. It really has nothing to do with any absence of multiple god concepts being absent from the bible or the religion as a whole. Satan blatantly being one of them.
Look, I am certain there is good reason to assume that it once had polytheistic roots (note the past tense). But for several thousand years, Satan has been an angel and a devise of God (the only God). Really all you are doing is looking at supernatural attributes and saying, they resemble god-like attributes, so therefore satan must be a god. That's not how this works. You're talking out of your ass.
Joe the Satanist worships the dark lord Satan and is awaiting the coming of the anti-Christ with great enthusiasm. Joe the Satanist readily acknowledges the godly existence of the Yahweh/Christ combo as depicted in the bible. Albeit as the divine and holy enemy of his own chosen despicable object of theistic worship.
Is Joe the Satanist a polytheist?
And why?
To Joe, Satan is a god. To the rest of humanity, he's an angel, or just doesn't exist and never has. Claiming things doesn't make it so.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Straggler, posted 06-14-2010 11:55 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Straggler, posted 06-15-2010 1:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 375 (567500)
07-01-2010 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Straggler
06-25-2010 5:24 AM


Re: Pencil-Theism Vs Mary Worship
Of course I am a God. Having changed my name to God I am a God in exactly the same sense that Paul McCartney (for example) is a Paul. In what sense are you saying that I am not a God?
Uh, well, if you changed your name to Uranus would you be the planet Uranus or would you share the same name as a planet?

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Straggler, posted 06-25-2010 5:24 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Straggler, posted 07-01-2010 1:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 375 (567539)
07-01-2010 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Straggler
07-01-2010 1:33 PM


Re: Pencil-Theism Vs Mary Worship
So then you agree with me that whether something is godly or not is based on conceptual criteria rather than mere labels?
I didn't realize you were being facetious
Are you coming round to my way of thinking?
I still don't really understand your argument that well. It doesn't make sense to me.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Straggler, posted 07-01-2010 1:33 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Straggler, posted 07-01-2010 2:04 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 258 of 375 (567793)
07-02-2010 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Straggler
07-01-2010 2:04 PM


Re: Pencil-Theism Vs Mary Worship
What criteria or attributes am I lacking such that I am most certainly and obviously am not a god?
You are dialoging. God's don't do that. With them, it's a one-sided conversation
Are there criteria by which we can recognise concepts of gods and resulting theism in other cultures?
Yeah, I get that, but then you go on to say that Satan must be a God without paying any attention to the gigantic tome which says he is distinguished as an angel -- a fallen angel, to be precise. Sure, if we had no scriptures talking about Satan, and anthropolgists or archeologists found some figurine of Satan, we might conclude he's a god based on such scanty information. But that kind of speculation is useless since we do know that Satan is an angel in all three of the major religions.
I don't think you should glibly brush that aside as inconsequential.
If we ignore the nomenclature and terminological trickery imposed by Christians and instead we apply the same religion-independent conceptual based thinking to the entities in which (many) Christians believe are they objectively monotheists?
But Christians didn't write the entirety of the bible, and Christians didn't invent Satan. It could be argued that they extrapolated the Satan device to mean more than what was intended by Judaism. Satan could have been a God in some predating religion where he was absorbed in to the culture and then synthesized. Shit like that happens all the time in religion (I submit to you ALL the major holidays as evidence). But as it stands, I really don't see where you are coming from. It seems that you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Whether you agree or not is that clearer?
I don't know. It feels like I'm missing a huge part of the puzzle. You seem to have some grand, unifying thought that you're trying to express -- like you had this aha! moment, and you're desperately trying to explain it. Either I am still missing it or your grand thought isn't all that grand

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Straggler, posted 07-01-2010 2:04 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Straggler, posted 07-02-2010 5:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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