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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Polytheistic?
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 7 of 375 (563684)
06-06-2010 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
06-06-2010 6:41 AM


Is greek mythology none-theistic ?
You take the, for example, Greek concept of what constitutes a God, and apply it to Satan in the christian worldview to declare that he should be considered a God as well.
But I could just as well apply the christian concept of what constitutes a God, and then apply it to greek mythology, and declare that (since none pass the 'test) that it is therefore a non-theistic (atheist?) belief.
I think if you think about it, you will realize that you are in fact equivocating the word 'god', and this is why your conclusion is false.
AbE To explain clearly the equivocation, you are equivocating the greek 'pagan' definition of God with the christian definition of God, in order to claim christianity should view satan is a god
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 06-06-2010 6:41 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 06-06-2010 3:58 PM slevesque has replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 39 of 375 (563806)
06-06-2010 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Straggler
06-06-2010 3:58 PM


Re: Is greek mythology none-theistic ?
This means that there were no gods, religions or forms of theism (poly or otherwise) prior to Christianity doesn't it?
Is that really what you mean?
If you think about it you will realise that you are committing the no true Scotsman fallacy. No?
See Dr.A response.
So what is this definition of god that I should be using and how does it do anything but limit theism in it's entirety to Judeo-Christian concepts of god.
Thus meaning theism of any sort didn't exist until Chrsitianity and terms like polytheism to be utterly meaningless by very definition.
For the christian definition of God, refer to theology books I guess.
But this doesn't render the word theism useless, theism is a descriptive term for a worldview where the term 'god' is applied to something.
Think about it, suppose I created a religion in which cats would be considered divine. Does that make you, who believes cat exists, to suddenly become a theist ? Obviously not, your worldview remains atheistic because you continue tu not view cats as gods. (I presuppose you are atheist, telle me if I'm mistaken)
In the same way, the christian worldview does not consider satan to be a god, and therefore remains monotheistic (the trinity is another issue to discuss) even though satan would qualify as a god in another wordlview.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 06-06-2010 3:58 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by subbie, posted 06-06-2010 9:57 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 53 by Straggler, posted 06-07-2010 12:53 PM slevesque has replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 42 of 375 (563822)
06-06-2010 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by subbie
06-06-2010 9:57 PM


Re: Is greek mythology none-theistic ?
Well then, let's discuss it. Father, son and holy ghost equals three. No amount of mental gymnastics or apologetics can change that simple fact. You are a polytheist, Sir!
But I'm not interested in discussing for a simple reason: it won't amount to anything.
Because whenever the concept of trinity is explained with more complexity beyond the basic 1+1+1=3, atheist will discard it as being ''mental gymnastics''. But of course, this simplistic view is a strawman of the actual thing, because the trinity concept isn't simple, it's complex. But it's understandable when you put the time and good will to understand it.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by subbie, posted 06-06-2010 9:57 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 72 of 375 (564052)
06-07-2010 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Straggler
06-07-2010 12:53 PM


Re: Is greek mythology none-theistic ?
I define myself to be god.
I believe that I exist.
Am I now a theist?
I have defined the word ''theism'' in message no39 as a descriptive term for a worldview in which the term 'god' is applied to something. So in your hypothetical scenario, yes theism would describe your worldview.
So by your world view (incorporating the Christian definition of god) are Hindus atheists? Or not?
Yes they are theists, because they apply the word 'god' to something. If they are right or wrong in doing so is irrelevant for them being theists.
I understand your logic, but it is flawed because you equivocate as I stated in my first message.
Please stop repeating the same reasoning over and over again, it won't make it right. Everybody here has being trying to tell you as clearly as possible why it is flawed.
AbE I don't use the argument you are referring to (god exists because people in ancient times believed in god(s))
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Straggler, posted 06-07-2010 12:53 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Straggler, posted 06-08-2010 7:15 AM slevesque has replied
 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 06-08-2010 2:21 PM slevesque has replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 79 of 375 (564171)
06-08-2010 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Straggler
06-08-2010 7:15 AM


Re: Is greek mythology none-theistic ?
But you personally have stated that you have no such criteria and that I can just as justifiably worship a pencil as being god as I can Vishnu. That is your position - Yes?
I am saying each worldview has it's own criterias. But their are no universal criteria(s) that every god in every theistic worldview must have in order to be theistic. The only thing a worldview needs is to ascribe the term 'god' to something.
Actually no. It doesn't remain monotheistic at all does it? If what you say above is true then Christianity is both monotheistic and polytheistic and even atheistic depending on whose definition of god you use.
The christian worldview has it's own personnal definition of god that it uses. That is why it is monotheistic.
Now if for some odd reason we would apply a hindu definition of god into the christian worldview, than it would be polytheistic. But that's a rather pointless exercise.
If I define pencils as gods and the Christian god is not a pencil then you become an atheist.
No, it means that the christian god is not a god for you, he's just a ...thing.
However, I remain a theist because I still hold a theistic worldview. No matter what view you hold of my god it does not matter.
The resounding stupidity of which suggests that it is NOT just a case of "all personal definitions are equally valid" and that there are some sort of universal criteria applied to the term "god" even if you are not willing to consider or specify what those criteria might be.
Some criteria's appear universal because they naturally come with the idea of 'religious experience', such as that the god in question usually has a supernatural side. However, they are not intrinsically universal as I said earlier.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Straggler, posted 06-08-2010 7:15 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2010 8:47 AM slevesque has replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 80 of 375 (564172)
06-08-2010 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Straggler
06-08-2010 2:21 PM


Re: Equivocations and Contradictions
So you have previously advocated the positions that belief in god is innate in humans, children are born believing in god and that every culture around the world have the concept of God/Gods.
What definition of god or "gods" were you using when you were making these arguments? How does the concept of Satan not meet whatever criteria you were applying in these cases?
Be explicit and try not to equivocate
The subject at the time was about children indoctrination, not about the existence of God. So I did not make the argument 'to prove God's existence' you are talking about.
As to what definition of 'god' was used, it was in a more general manner. I don't know to explicit this, but take this example (from the study in question):
Dr. Barrett: "If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God."
Dr. Barrett: "If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in a theistic worldview".
I hope it's clear. (cause I don't feel it is)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 06-08-2010 2:21 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2010 8:55 AM slevesque has replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 90 of 375 (564331)
06-09-2010 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Straggler
06-09-2010 8:47 AM


Re: Is greek mythology none-theistic ?
So you have advocated that belief in god is both innate and culturally universal. Yet you also claim that there are no universal criteria by which god concepts can be recognised and that the term applies to whatever one chooses to ascribe it to. Given both that other cultures have their own words for such concepts and that newborn children are incapable of ascribing the term god to anything at all your stance here is clearly internally inconsistent and contradictory.
You do realize you are taking quotes from a conversation that is almost a year old and in a vastly different context.
But I see where you make an error: in this thread, we are speaking theoretically about theism and what limits the use of the word God. I hve been saying, that in theory, nothing prevents anything from being anyone's god and making him a theist.
Now the other year old thread is different, it is a practical research. If you have taken the time to look into the study, you will notice that they narrowed the theoretical use of the word god to have criteria's such as 'supernatural' and 'creator', etc. implicitly attached to it.
Ah the use of the term was used in a general manner. But the general manner of using this term has no universal criteria that can differentiate pencils from any other god concepts or allow us to recognise "god" concepts in other languages and cultures.
Yeah well I rather think that the questions the study asked the children naturally narrowed the word 'god' from it's general manner to 'supernatural' and 'creator'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2010 8:47 AM Straggler has not replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 91 of 375 (564333)
06-09-2010 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Straggler
06-09-2010 8:55 AM


Re: Equivocations and Contradictions
In the context of this thread where you wish to disclude Satan from being godly in any sense you narrowly define the term god to suit that argument. Yet when you are making more broadly pro-theistic arguments and you wish to claim that belief in god is innate or culturally widespread you define the term quite differently and in such a way that Satan would indeed qualify as a god.
And then you have the temerity to accuse me of equivocation?
I am starting to doubt that you have an accurate comprehension of what is equivocation. Equivocation is not having a word have different meanings. It is using a meaning in the wrong context as to make your point.
When I am talking about theism in general, I use a more general definition of god. When I talk about the christian worldview, I use the christian definition. When I talk about the hindu worldview, I use the hindu definition.
You, on the other hand, used the greek definition of god in the christian worldview to declare satan should be considered a 'god'. That is equivocation.
The quotes are from a number of threads in which you advocate both the innateness and cultural universality of human belief in god.
Nobody here is talking about "proving gods existence" at all.
quote:
How many times have you seen believers here at EvC cite widespread belief in gods as some sort of evidence for the actual existence of gods?
quote:
You and I have both seen Christians here repeatedly cite widespread belief in gods as some sort of evidence for the actual existence of god.
You are changing the goalpost, this was precisely the argument you said yo usaw christians use, and this is the argument I said I never used.
It is different from citing the widespread belief in god as evidence for the innate nature of religiousness/theistic beliefs over it being simple an indoctrinated behavior. (remember onifre was saying children were born atheists)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2010 8:55 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Pauline, posted 06-10-2010 9:32 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 93 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 9:49 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 95 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 10:53 AM slevesque has not replied

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