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Author Topic:   Why is sin heritable?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 27 of 139 (563834)
06-07-2010 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Pauline
06-06-2010 9:18 PM


Re: whats inheritable and whats not...where do you draw the line?
Hi Dr,
Dr Sing writes:
We never received his sin. We received his sin nature..and we're trying to figure out why we did.
God formed a man from the dust of the ground. He then breathed the breath of life into him and he became a perfect living being.
That perfect man was put in a perfect garden with one instruction not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Moses writes:
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The results of eating the fruit would be death.
Thus Pauls statement:
Luke writes:
Romans Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
One man disobeyed God and by that act brought death into the universe.
Had that man not eaten of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would still be tending the garden today and we would not exist. Only he and the woman made from his rib would exist.
So everyone is under the penalty of sin which is death.
One other thing happened that day when he ate the fruit.
Moses writes:
Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
God drove the man out of the garden.
Up until this time the man was allowed in the presence of God but from this moment on he was separated from God. There is no place that God came and talked with this man again. He did speak to Cain.
Therefore the penalty of sin entered into the universe by this man's disobedience. All men are under the penalty of sin. The death rate will be 100%. There was two fellows who got out of this world alive and they still have to die. They will be the two witnesses.
Mankind was separated from God by the disobedience of this man.
That is why it was necessary for the sacrifice of Calvary to reunite mankind and restore him to the perfect condition that first man was in when he was placed in the garden.
That sacrifice was made from the foundation of the universe.
John writes:
Revelation Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
God is all knowing and knew man would disobey so before God made mankind He counted the cost of creating a being with freewill and decided it was worth the cost.
But it was decided beforehand that God the Son would come and die to restore mankind to the perfect condition the first man was in before he disobeyed God.
Thus God offers a free gift to anyone who will believe His Word and receive the gift of eternal life.
All those who do not accept the gift of God will remain separated from God for eternity.
It is not about being good or bad. It is about believing God is who He says He is and trusting Him to do what He says He will do.
Luke writes:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The gift of God is eternal life.
John writes:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Verse 16 tells us that God loved the universe and you and I enough to let God the Son die in our place.
(For the space of 3 hours while on the cross God the Father and God the Son was separated. Don't ask me to explain how this is possible I don't know.)
Verse 17 tells us that Jesus did not come to condemn the world. That was not necessary as the next verse tells us condemnation existed already.
Verse 18 tells us that those who believe are not condemned.
It also tells us that those who do not believe are condemned already.
John then gives us the reason for that condemnation when he says, "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".
There is no mention of condemnation for sin of any kind.
It could have given all the reasons that man has contrived and put forth but it does not.
It simply say a man is condemned because he has not believed.
Sin is not inherited.
The penalty of sin exists. It was brought into existence by the first man.
Death exists.
Mankind is separated from God and condemned already.
Unless mankind is reunited by accepting God's gift he will be separated from God for eternity.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Pauline, posted 06-06-2010 9:18 PM Pauline has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phage0070, posted 06-07-2010 2:45 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 34 by purpledawn, posted 06-07-2010 7:25 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 28 of 139 (563836)
06-07-2010 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
06-06-2010 7:03 AM


Re: heritable sin
Hi Larni,
Larni writes:
Why did Yahweh make sin heritable?
It is not heritable.
Sin is an act of mankind which is committed by choice when mankind exercises freewill and disobeys God's orders.
Death exists because of the disobedience of one man.
All mankind was separated from God because of the disobedience of one man.
No one goes to the Lake of Fire for committing a sin of any kind.
Man goes to the Lake of Fire because he will not Believe God and receive His offer of the gift of eternal life.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : add signture

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 06-06-2010 7:03 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Larni, posted 06-07-2010 8:16 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 71 of 139 (563997)
06-07-2010 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phage0070
06-07-2010 2:45 AM


Re: whats inheritable and whats not...where do you draw the line?
Hi Phage,
Phage0070 writes:
If that being was perfect, then how come he ended up eating the fruit? If Jesus was also perfect, this implies that even Jesus would have ended up eating the fruit.
He had no sin in him as it did not exist in the universe. That would make him a perfect man.
Mankind was created with the ability to choose. Just as you chose to answer my post. You did not have to answer and no one made you answer. You simply exercised your freewill and chose to answer.
The question is why did the man choose to eat the fruit. The woman was deceived by Satan in the form of a serpent. But the man was not deceived. When the woman brought the fruit to him and told him she had eaten the fruit. He knew she would die so he chose to eat and die with her. Had he not eaten he would still be alive in the garden today.
Jesus was tempted by Satan when he offered to turn the Earth and mankind over to Jesus if He would bow and worship him. He did that three times and Jesus refused all three times. He remained sinless.
Phage0070 writes:
Either Adam was flawed, or God is punishing for something that wasn't a mistake.
The man was not flawed. He just made a decision that was necessary for you to exist.
That decision he made brought sin which produces death into the universe.
By that sin mankind was separated from God.
A way of redemption was required.
God provided that redemption.
It is available to anyone and everyone.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phage0070, posted 06-07-2010 2:45 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phage0070, posted 06-07-2010 6:46 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 72 of 139 (564001)
06-07-2010 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by purpledawn
06-07-2010 7:25 AM


Re: Perfect Man
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
You're embellishing a bit on the text, unless you are using perfect to mean completed.
I am using it as a man without the guilt of sin or under the penalty of sin.
purpledawn writes:
Had God not put the tree of Knowledge of good and evil in the garden, we would have the same result. Who had better knowledge of what would likely happen?
Then mankind would not have freewill to choose.
purpledawn writes:
If God didn't want mankind to have the ability to make choices, he would have destroyed all mankind in the flood. By saving Noah and his family, God allowed mankind to continue with the ability to sin. This tells us that God wanted mankind to be this way.
It tells us God wanted mankind to have a choice.
Mankind can believe God and trust Him for which he will receive eternal life.
Mankind can choose to believe God is a lie and does not exist and he will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by purpledawn, posted 06-07-2010 7:25 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by purpledawn, posted 06-08-2010 6:43 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 73 of 139 (564005)
06-07-2010 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Larni
06-07-2010 8:16 AM


Re: heritable sin
Hi Larni,
Larni writes:
But if YHWH loved us he would gift us with eternal life, rather than make it contingent on our choices (which our nature specifically makes impossible).
So you feel you are entitled, Why?
Larni writes:
Like a parent loving their baby, rather than making that love contingent on loving us back (a concept no baby can deal with).
Do you consider yourself a baby?
God takes care of babies until they reach the point the man did when he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Do you know good and evil?
Is murder evil?
Is helping a struggling family that has no food to eat good?
If so you know good and evil.
You are no longer a baby and are responsible for yourself.
You have the ability to choose to believe in God and trust Him.
You also have the ability to choose to believe God does not exist and trust in yourself.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Larni, posted 06-07-2010 8:16 AM Larni has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 97 of 139 (564151)
06-08-2010 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by purpledawn
06-08-2010 6:43 AM


Re: Perfect Man
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
But it isn't part of the story. He still had the potential to sin.
What was the potential to sin?
Had he committed a sin, if so what?
If he had committed no sin he was not under the penalty of sin.
purpledawn writes:
They would still have the ability to make decisions. The Tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil (TKGE) just wouldn't have been a choice put before them.
But eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the only choice given that would result in death.
Mankind still faces the same choice today. Mankind can believe God and trust Him to give them eternal life or the result is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.
Sure you can choose to do good or bad or both but that will not give you eternal life with God or eternal separation from God.
purpledawn writes:
Only if one chooses wickedness, IOW to sin.
If you have scripture for that I would like to see it.
The only place I can find sin and eternal life in the same verse is:
Luke writes:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
What you get for sin is death.
What you can get from God is the gift of eternal life.
purpledawn writes:
Sin is not inherited. The ability to choose sin is in all of us, although in reality I feel there are cases where people really don't have a choice. An anomaly in their genetic or physical makeup. Some of those anomalies can be inherited.
We agree sin is not inherited.
We agree that man has the ability to choose to sin or not to sin.
We agree that there are those who do not have the ability to choose to sin.
I add those who have not reached the point that the man was when he ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil fit in that group.
Children fit in that group even though they sin they are not accountable as they are covered by God's grace until they reach the ability to know good and evil.
There is also a group that their minds never reach this point due to physical and or mental problems.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by purpledawn, posted 06-08-2010 6:43 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by purpledawn, posted 06-08-2010 6:24 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 131 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-15-2010 11:30 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 98 of 139 (564153)
06-08-2010 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phage0070
06-07-2010 6:46 PM


Re: whats inheritable and whats not...where do you draw the line?
Hi Phage,
Phage0070 writes:
My point is that if Adam was perfect, and Jesus was perfect, then if Jesus was in the same situation that Adam was he would behave the same way.
Why would Jesus have to make the same decision Adam did?
After 40 days without food Satan tempted Jesus by saying " If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread."
Jesus answered:
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Satan then took him up on a pinnacle of the temple and said:
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus answered:
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Then Satan played the trump card.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Jesus answer was:
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Jesus came to redeem the universe and everything in it to himself.
Satan offered a shortcut by offering to turn it all over to him if He would fall down and worship him.
So Adam only had one choice, Jesus had three.
Jesus refused every attempt of Satan.
That proves sin is not inheritable as Jesus did have a physical body.
Phage0070 writes:
Except for those who don't know about it, or commit the sin of not asking for it.
There are none of those who read these pages.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phage0070, posted 06-07-2010 6:46 PM Phage0070 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 101 of 139 (564213)
06-09-2010 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by purpledawn
06-08-2010 6:24 PM


Re: Paul and Sin
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
I think Paul's logic is flawed. He says that because the first man sinned, all men sinned. Since sin is the cause of death, all men must die.
Paul did not say what you said he did.
Paul did say:
Luke writes:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
"by one man sin entered into the world"
That does not say because the first man sinned all men sinned.
" death by sin;" and so death passed upon all men"
He did say death entered the universe by sin. No death prior to sin.
"so death passed upon all men"
He said because of that sin all mankind would die.
purpledawn writes:
Before God decided to keep them away from the Tree of Life he said to the man.
Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
Yes but that was after the man had already disobeyed God and brought sin into the universe.
The sin that caused death to enter the universe.
Here is the text to refresh your memory.
Moses writes:
3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
purpledawn writes:
Natural death is not a consequence of Adam's sin. They were already capable of dying naturally.
Your assertion is not supported by the text.
Man was not capable of dying until he ate the fruit.
That disobedience cause sin to enter the universe.
The result of sin is death.
Now if you want to discard the text you can say anything you want.
purpledawn writes:
Just as sin is not inherited it is not the cause of natural death either.
Sin is not inherited. Sin exists.
Sin is not the cause of natural death.
But because the first man did disobey God sin entered into the universe. The penalty for that disobedience was death.
Death entered into the universe. Therefore death exists.
These laws are in place just as all the other laws put in place to control the universe.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by purpledawn, posted 06-08-2010 6:24 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by purpledawn, posted 06-09-2010 9:36 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 110 of 139 (564412)
06-10-2010 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by purpledawn
06-09-2010 9:36 AM


Re: Paul and Sin
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
You're personifying. Humans are capable of disobedience. One can described what constitutes disobedience, but we can't point to disobedience until it happens. It is an act, not an entity. There is no disobedience until there is a rule or order made by someone to disobey.
I don't think I am trying to make sin a living being.
Disobedience happens when a rule or order is disobeyed.
The man was the only one given the command. Therefore he was the only one who could disobey the command.
I agree there is no disobedience unless there is a law, command, or rule to disobey.
Paul tells us:
Luke writes:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
purpledawn writes:
Eve may have committed the first act of disobedience, but the description of what constituted disobedience came as soon as God made the rule and stated the consequences. (Genesis 2:17) This was before the woman was created.
The command was not given to the woman. So what did she disobey? God did not include her when he gave the man the order. She did not even exist at that time.
The man is the only one that could disobey the order.
purpledawn writes:
A&E sinned, but sin did not enter the "universe" as you put it or mankind. Since we agree sin is not inherited and sin is not the cause of natural death, why would you say the consequence is death?
The penalty of sin did enter into the universe.
The penalty for sin is death.
Death exists today.
purpledawn writes:
The threat was instant death, the actual consequences were very different.
And you base your assertion on what?
You don't base it on the Bible as it says:
Moses writes:
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The text says he would die in the day he ate the fruit.
It does not say instant death.
The consequences was that he died in the day that God created the Heaven and the Earth as given in the history of that day.
We know he died that day because he did not exist in the evening we find in Genesis 1:2.
purpledawn writes:
Death didn't enter the "universe" from the outside. As soon as God created biological organisms, death was inevitable. It had nothing to do with A&E.
Death did not exist until the first man disobeyed according to the Bible.
I know that is hard for someone who does not believe the Bible, to understand.
If you have some scripture that states otherwise please present it.
The laws of evolution would require death but the laws of God did not require death until it was made a part of the universe.
As an aside just think how much vegetation could accumulate over an extended period of light that could be turned into coal, gas, and oil.
purpledawn writes:
Gods were considered immortal. As soon as God made mortals, natural death was inevitable.
Who says the man formed from the dust of the ground was mortal? The text says he became a living being.
purpledawn writes:
As far as Genesis 3:19, if you look at the return to the ground as punishment, then it was only for Adam. Eve was made of bone and that wasn't part of her punishment.
Death was the prescribed punishment.
The returning to the earth was the natural process the body would take.
Remember I do not and have not claimed this group of people had a spirit as modern man does. There is no place that this man and woman was made in the image/likeness of God is recorded.
The man was formed from the dust of the ground. God then breathed the breath of life into him and he became a living being.
purpledawn writes:
They weren't punished with natural death. As biological organisms that was inevitable. They ultimately lost the opportunity to eat from the tree of life, which the story doesn't tell us they even knew about it. So they lost as option they probably didn't know they had.
He disobeyed they died.
Why was death inevitable?
Why would they need to eat of the tree of life?
The only rules we know the man was ever given was to not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Other rules are infered as God had favor to one offering over the other from Cain and Abel. But we have no detail of any such rules.
purpledawn writes:
So we agree that sin is not inherited and that sin is not the cause of natural death.
But natural death is the result of the first man's disobeying of a direct order from God.
The result of this disobedience is that all living things die.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by purpledawn, posted 06-09-2010 9:36 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by purpledawn, posted 06-10-2010 5:43 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 114 by jaywill, posted 06-11-2010 3:33 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 113 of 139 (564536)
06-10-2010 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by purpledawn
06-10-2010 5:43 PM


Re: Paul and Sin
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
I disagree. Natural death was already part of life.
What do you base that assertion on?
We are talking about sin being inherited so the only place I know that mentions that is the Bible.
So what in the Bible supports your position.
Just because you disagree does not make you correct.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by purpledawn, posted 06-10-2010 5:43 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by purpledawn, posted 06-11-2010 8:04 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 119 of 139 (564622)
06-11-2010 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by jaywill
06-11-2010 3:33 AM


Re: What I think
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes:
What do you think ?
I think a lot of things but most of them turn out wrong. But when I accept what the Word says I find myself on solid foundation.
Now as to what I think.
jaywill writes:
Also I think the personification of Sin is biblical.
Satan is the personification of Sin.
We have a sin nature we receive at birth because the first man sold us into slavery by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
This disobedience separated mankind from God, and also introduced death into the universe.
Abel is the first thing we know that died. The young man Lamech killed was the second.
The fruit the man and woman ate was converted from fruit to energy.
jaywill writes:
Satan is bound during the millennial kingdom, a sin nature is still in the living people on the earth.
Satan can make no one sin. He can tempt them. Like you setting cookies on the table or have candy laying around the house with a bunch of kids in the house.
But when Satan is bound for a 1000 years where are all his angels they have not been bound they are still on the loose and yes man will still disobey the rules that Jesus sets up during this time.
Zechariah tells us in chapter 14 that when Jesus returns to the place He left the earth and sets up His earthly kingdom that there will be people who do not conform to His rules will suffer for that disobedience. That tells me they will be able to exercise their freewill to choose to obey or disobey.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jaywill, posted 06-11-2010 3:33 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jaywill, posted 06-11-2010 12:53 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 120 of 139 (564626)
06-11-2010 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by purpledawn
06-11-2010 8:04 AM


Re: Natural Death - Sin and Iniquity
Hi PD,
prupledawn writes:
The A&E story tells us natural death is already part of life.
The A&E story tells us.
Moses writes:
2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Verse 17 tells us that the man would die in the day he ate the fruit of a specific tree.
This infers that if he did not eat of that fruit he would not die.
So no that tells us death was not already a part of life.
If it was why the command with the penalty of eating being death?
purpledawn writes:
Sin is not a thing. It is an act of breaking the rules whether intentional or by accident.
I agree that sin as described in the Bible is the disobedience of rules and laws that God has put forth.
I also gave you a scripture that tells us where there is no law there is no transgression.
purpledawn writes:
A&E were given the ability to make choices. If they didn't have that ability, there would have been no need for God to threaten death. Also by threatening early death, that meant death was possible before the fruit was eaten.
God did not threaten early death.
God decreed if and when the man ate the fruit he would die that day.
The man did die that day as he did not exist at Genesis 1:2.
So your conclusion is in error.
purpledawn writes:
God created man with good and evil inclinations.
Wrong.
God created man and gave him a choice.
God gave man a command not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Man could choose to eat the fruit or he could choose not to eat the fruit.
When man ate the fruit he came to know good and evil.
Moses writes:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
According to God man did not have this ability but acquired it by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
So no man did not have the sin nature before disobeying God.
Therefore man could not be allowed to eat of the fruit of the tree of life because if he did he would live forever with a sinful nature in him.
This brought about the need for mankind to be bought back out of this slavery that the first man sold them into.
At the present:
My spirit has been born again. It is sinless as the Holy Spirit has sealed it.
My mind is in the process of being redeemed.
When Jesus comes back I will receive a body that is incapable of sin.
purpledawn writes:
The good and evil inclinations (instincts) are inherited. Rules serve to control the evil inclinations within a civilization.
These good and evil inclinations you say are inherited is what we refer to as the original sin nature which means man is prone to sin.
Paul tells us it is a war that must be fought constantly.
Luke writes:
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul said there was part of him that delighted in the law of the Lord but in his flesh dwelt a nature that loved to sin.
Paul realized that the law he had learned as a Pharisee could not deliver him. So he ask the question who could deliver him.
Then he thanked God that through Jesus Christ our Lord he had deliverance, and could serve the Lord in his mind even though the flesh still had the sin nature in it.
All mankind are sinners.
They are divided into two groups.
Saved sinners and condemned sinners.
Which group are you in?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by purpledawn, posted 06-11-2010 8:04 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by purpledawn, posted 06-11-2010 5:26 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 123 of 139 (564768)
06-12-2010 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by jaywill
06-11-2010 12:53 PM


Re: What I think
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes:
This is a point to ponder for me. Sin had to have been somewhee in Satan. And Satan had to have been in the universe. So I think Paul's use of the word "the world" may have on it some limitations.
Where has Satan sinned?
God created him and his angels and they are doing the job that He created them to do. BTW they are doing a very good job.
They were created to give mankind a choice. God is good and if there was no evil what would the choice be?
God created evil.
Isaiah writes:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
jaywill writes:
I think that the cattle slain so that Adam and his wife could be clothed occured before Abel died. But Abel was the first human death.
As you said earlier Genesis is vague on some things and this is one of them.
I was taught that God killed animals and made coats of skins for mankind.
Truth is the text does not say that. Modern man has added that interpretation to the text.
In fact animals do not have skins they have hides, humans have skins.
Skins is a covering as is hides.
Whatever their covering was God provided it.
Just as He provides a covering for our sins.
Moses writes:
Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
jaywill writes:
I believe that Abel received the revelation to offer cattle as a blood sacrifice from his parents. It does not say that. But I think his offering of a living thing was a pre-figure of Christ and instructed by God to Abel's parents.
I think that Cain did not follow the revelation of his parents and presumed to come up with a original idea. In this sense Cain was the first inventor of a human religion.
I hold the same view as to how they were supposed to worship but I have no text to hang it on.
As far as Cain I think he decided if he killed Able God would have to accept his offering.
That was practiced for at leas 1200 years after Jesus started His Church.
jaywill writes:
And I noticed that though Satan is bound the sinner still dies at the age of 100 according to one prophecy.
You are referring to the following passage.
Isaiah writes:
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.
In this passage the child/servant at the age of 100 receives his glorified body.
A person that does not obey the rules Jesus puts into effect during the 1000 years Satan is chained in the Lake of Fire will die a physical death at the age of 100.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jaywill, posted 06-11-2010 12:53 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by AZPaul3, posted 06-12-2010 12:43 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 128 by jaywill, posted 06-13-2010 7:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 124 of 139 (564770)
06-12-2010 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by purpledawn
06-11-2010 5:26 PM


Re: Natural Death - Sin and Iniquity
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
quote:
The man did die that day as he did not exist at Genesis 1:2.
That's your theory from the other thread, which you haven't responded to my last comment on your theory. You haven't made your case on that issue yet. So my conclusion may or may not be in error.
I don't have a theory.
The text says this is the history of the day God created the Heaven and the Earth. Genesis 2:4
In that history is says God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into that form and it became a living being. Genesis 2:7
That man did not exist at the end of that day which occurs in Genesis 1:2. The land mass was covered with water.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by purpledawn, posted 06-11-2010 5:26 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 126 of 139 (564774)
06-12-2010 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by AZPaul3
06-12-2010 12:43 PM


Re: Off Topic But Germain Nonetheless
Hi Paul,
AZPaul3 writes:
It is tidbits like this that make the rest of us chuckle. Seemingly an innocent error but said with such conviction and authority.
I can take the hide off a cow or deer and tan it and make things of them like shoes, belts, purses, wallets as well as other things.
Now if human skins are the same please explain how I could do this with them.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by AZPaul3, posted 06-12-2010 12:43 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by AZPaul3, posted 06-13-2010 1:34 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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