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Author Topic:   Why is sin heritable?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 121 of 139 (564633)
06-11-2010 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
06-11-2010 11:11 AM


Re: What I think
I think a lot of things but most of them turn out wrong. But when I accept what the Word says I find myself on solid foundation.
I also find the best policy is to say "Amen" to whatever the word says.
Now as to what I think.
jaywill writes:
Also I think the personification of Sin is biblical.
Satan is the personification of Sin.
While some bible readers seem troubled by this, I found it to be a relief. Not a relief from responsibility mind you. But a relief.
I remember that as a young man in my first year away from home at college, I eventually told a friend that I felt like a demon. And I was not kidding.
Some years latter when I learned of the personification of Sin in Romans 7, my experience made more sense to me. something was lurking to capture me, slay me, deceive me, just as Paul had written.
The personification of Sin made complete sense to my experience.
We have a sin nature we receive at birth because the first man sold us into slavery by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
I think that the Bible is economical in what it tells us. Perhaps there was more involved there in the garden then we can know. Something of the deep occult seems to be evidenced.
Though I do not understand it all, I think human history is as it is related there. The foundations of human life on earth are rooted in the supernatural, I do believe.
This disobedience separated mankind from God, and also introduced death into the universe.
This is a point to ponder for me. Sin had to have been somewhee in Satan. And Satan had to have been in the universe. So I think Paul's use of the word "the world" may have on it some limitations.
If the serpent sinned by his lying, then the sin of lying was in the universe. It was somewhere because the tempter was sinful and the tempter was in the garden.
Abel is the first thing we know that died. The young man Lamech killed was the second.
I think that the cattle slain so that Adam and his wife could be clothed occured before Abel died. But Abel was the first human death.
I believe that Abel received the revelation to offer cattle as a blood sacrifice from his parents. It does not say that. But I think his offering of a living thing was a pre-figure of Christ and instructed by God to Abel's parents.
I think that Cain did not follow the revelation of his parents and presumed to come up with a original idea. In this sense Cain was the first inventor of a human religion.
The fruit the man and woman ate was converted from fruit to energy.
Hadn't thought much about that.
Aurthor Custance of "The Doorway Papers" has some things written about the actual fruit. I think I will finally get around to reading it.
jaywill writes:
Satan is bound during the millennial kingdom, a sin nature is still in the living people on the earth.
Satan can make no one sin. He can tempt them. Like you setting cookies on the table or have candy laying around the house with a bunch of kids in the house.
But when Satan is bound for a 1000 years where are all his angels they have not been bound they are still on the loose and yes man will still disobey the rules that Jesus sets up during this time.
Let me think on that one. I had never considered that.
Zechariah tells us in chapter 14 that when Jesus returns to the place He left the earth and sets up His earthly kingdom that there will be people who do not conform to His rules will suffer for that disobedience. That tells me they will be able to exercise their freewill to choose to obey or disobey.
Exactly. I noticed. This is why some scholars give up on any concept of a golden age of peace or millennium.
And I noticed that though Satan is bound the sinner still dies at the age of 100 according to one prophecy.
I had never considered that the hosts of Satan were not bound along with Satan. I want to bounce that off of some brothers I know whose fellowship is valuable to me.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
And see? Christians can have different views without condemning one another. We all see through a glass darkly. But then, face to face with the Lord Jesus.
We will know even as we are known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 06-11-2010 11:11 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2010 11:56 AM jaywill has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 122 of 139 (564680)
06-11-2010 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ICANT
06-11-2010 12:18 PM


Re: Natural Death - Sin and Iniquity
quote:
The man did die that day as he did not exist at Genesis 1:2.
That's your theory from the other thread, which you haven't responded to my last comment on your theory. You haven't made your case on that issue yet. So my conclusion may or may not be in error.
quote:
All mankind are sinners.
Nope. All of mankind has the good and evil inclinations. Only those who break the rules have sinned.
We've been over this before and we are going to disagree. You read Paul your way and I chose to find out what his audience was to understand.
We agree sin is not inherited, we just don't agree on why.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 06-11-2010 12:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2010 12:05 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 123 of 139 (564768)
06-12-2010 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by jaywill
06-11-2010 12:53 PM


Re: What I think
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes:
This is a point to ponder for me. Sin had to have been somewhee in Satan. And Satan had to have been in the universe. So I think Paul's use of the word "the world" may have on it some limitations.
Where has Satan sinned?
God created him and his angels and they are doing the job that He created them to do. BTW they are doing a very good job.
They were created to give mankind a choice. God is good and if there was no evil what would the choice be?
God created evil.
Isaiah writes:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
jaywill writes:
I think that the cattle slain so that Adam and his wife could be clothed occured before Abel died. But Abel was the first human death.
As you said earlier Genesis is vague on some things and this is one of them.
I was taught that God killed animals and made coats of skins for mankind.
Truth is the text does not say that. Modern man has added that interpretation to the text.
In fact animals do not have skins they have hides, humans have skins.
Skins is a covering as is hides.
Whatever their covering was God provided it.
Just as He provides a covering for our sins.
Moses writes:
Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
jaywill writes:
I believe that Abel received the revelation to offer cattle as a blood sacrifice from his parents. It does not say that. But I think his offering of a living thing was a pre-figure of Christ and instructed by God to Abel's parents.
I think that Cain did not follow the revelation of his parents and presumed to come up with a original idea. In this sense Cain was the first inventor of a human religion.
I hold the same view as to how they were supposed to worship but I have no text to hang it on.
As far as Cain I think he decided if he killed Able God would have to accept his offering.
That was practiced for at leas 1200 years after Jesus started His Church.
jaywill writes:
And I noticed that though Satan is bound the sinner still dies at the age of 100 according to one prophecy.
You are referring to the following passage.
Isaiah writes:
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.
In this passage the child/servant at the age of 100 receives his glorified body.
A person that does not obey the rules Jesus puts into effect during the 1000 years Satan is chained in the Lake of Fire will die a physical death at the age of 100.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jaywill, posted 06-11-2010 12:53 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by AZPaul3, posted 06-12-2010 12:43 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 128 by jaywill, posted 06-13-2010 7:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 124 of 139 (564770)
06-12-2010 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by purpledawn
06-11-2010 5:26 PM


Re: Natural Death - Sin and Iniquity
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
quote:
The man did die that day as he did not exist at Genesis 1:2.
That's your theory from the other thread, which you haven't responded to my last comment on your theory. You haven't made your case on that issue yet. So my conclusion may or may not be in error.
I don't have a theory.
The text says this is the history of the day God created the Heaven and the Earth. Genesis 2:4
In that history is says God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into that form and it became a living being. Genesis 2:7
That man did not exist at the end of that day which occurs in Genesis 1:2. The land mass was covered with water.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by purpledawn, posted 06-11-2010 5:26 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 125 of 139 (564773)
06-12-2010 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
06-12-2010 11:56 AM


Off Topic But Germain Nonetheless
In fact animals do not have skins they have hides, humans have skins.
It is tidbits like this that make the rest of us chuckle. Seemingly an innocent error but said with such conviction and authority.
The larger problem is that there are so many of them coming from religionists (entire web sites are dedicated to preserving these little gems and our own beloved Buzzsaw is a virtual industry onto himself for generating such) that we must wonder.
Do morons just naturally gravitate to religion, or is there some intrinsic force in religion that makes people so god awful stupid?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2010 11:56 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2010 1:29 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 126 of 139 (564774)
06-12-2010 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by AZPaul3
06-12-2010 12:43 PM


Re: Off Topic But Germain Nonetheless
Hi Paul,
AZPaul3 writes:
It is tidbits like this that make the rest of us chuckle. Seemingly an innocent error but said with such conviction and authority.
I can take the hide off a cow or deer and tan it and make things of them like shoes, belts, purses, wallets as well as other things.
Now if human skins are the same please explain how I could do this with them.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by AZPaul3, posted 06-12-2010 12:43 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by AZPaul3, posted 06-13-2010 1:34 AM ICANT has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 127 of 139 (564824)
06-13-2010 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by ICANT
06-12-2010 1:29 PM


Re: Off Topic But Germain Nonetheless
Now if human skins are the same please explain how I could do this with them.
You have comprehension problems with your native language, but I do not believe you are a psychopath, still, I will pass on this request.
Recognizing the error is as simple as looking up "skin." It does indeed pertain to animals. here
And I will not countenance the stupidity of a battle of nuanced semantics.
But it is not the error itself that is telling. It is the conviction with which the error is put forth. Even with notice that something was amiss you come back insisting on your belief without checking whether your point was fact or fiction.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2010 1:29 PM ICANT has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 128 of 139 (564849)
06-13-2010 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
06-12-2010 11:56 AM


Re: What I think
Greetings ICANT
Where has Satan sinned?
You're blessed to only get a short answer this morning.
I think Paul even leaves something like this argument as an unanswered question in Romans 9:19-22. He ends the query with "What IF ...?" (9:22) .
Maybe he left us with the impression that some matters were too deep even for him.
Do these words of God indicate to you that perhaps a sin has been commited:
"And Jehovah said to the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed ..." (See Gen 3:14)
I assume you have no problem with the old serpent being identified as Satan the Devil (Rev. 12:9). The only question is whether you would regard God's cursing of the serpent in Genesis 3:13 as indicative of Satan having transgressed, sinned, missed the mark.
If so, then Satan's sin preceeded Adam's. Am I right ?
God created him and his angels and they are doing the job that He created them to do. BTW they are doing a very good job.
Well, sure. Pharoah and Judas also did a job for God. But they too sinned. I think Pharoah confessed the same though I haven't time to look it up right now.
They were created to give mankind a choice. God is good and if there was no evil what would the choice be?
God created evil.
That's a big philosophical issue that I don't think I can answer completely this morning.
But I believe that whatever God was Satan made himself the antithesis of. If God is truth Satan became the lie. If God is light Satan became the opposite, the darkness. Satan could not create anything really. He could only become the opposite of what God is.
Now the phrase in Isaiah about the Lord creating evil, I would have to revisit. And I probably would have to review the original Hebrew there with some linquistic helps.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2010 11:56 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 129 of 139 (565159)
06-15-2010 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by iano
06-09-2010 8:58 AM


Sin inherited by all due to the sin of one is a natural feature of the b) class of hull design. That is the design that God chose in creating mankind.
I understand your analogy. But it seems to indicate that YHWH cannot alter some aspects of his creation.
This then implies that he did not forsee that he would be backed into a corner where his power was constrained (by the very rules he decided to implement).
The only conclusion I can draw from this (if he loves us as much as we are told) is that he made a mistake that he could not correct by fiat and had to jump through all of the hoops (killing Jesus) to get around (somehow) the 'rules of reality'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by iano, posted 06-09-2010 8:58 AM iano has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 139 (565183)
06-15-2010 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Peg
06-07-2010 9:02 PM


All of Gods traits are perfect and he always acts in perfect harmony with the standards he sets...not only does he expect us to live by his standards, but he himself lives by his standards.
That really begs the question, doesn't it? If God is deemed a priori, then whatever he does is considered "perfect" by virtue of the claim itself. So even if God "violated his own law," you could never deem it as such by the virtue that he's perfect.
In other words, let's say that genocide is wrong. Suppose God kills a whole bunch of people. Is he wrong? No, but only by the virtue that you claim he's perfect. Indeed you will find ways that he's righteous even in the face of transparent hypocrisy. You will always find a justification because philosophically you can't conceive of God ever being wrong.
He had to allow justice to run its course, he had to allow Adam and Eve to die, he had to allow them to bring forth children becaues that was their mandate and he had to allow the full consequences of Adams sin and Satans rebellion run its course in order to completely settle the issues that it raised.
God didn't have to do anything, least of all create physical beings when such an emphasis is placed on the spiritual world. All that could have been avoided.
Was he happy about it, no of course not. could he have killed Satan, Adam and Eve and start again, yes of course he could have. But that would have left the question mark as to whether Satan was right or not. Gods heavenly family of Angels, including his firstborn son Jesus Christ, were all eyewitnesses to the events in Eden. They knew of the challenge made by Satan and they deserved the right to know if Satan was telling the truth about God or not.
When did Satan fall, and why?
God trusted his human creation and he knew that mankind could remain loyal and obedient to him so he allowed Adam and Eve to bring forth their children and he provided those children with a way out of their fallen condition.
But no human has ever been fully obedient to God. That's the whole reason for Jesus, remember?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Peg, posted 06-07-2010 9:02 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 139 (565184)
06-15-2010 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by ICANT
06-08-2010 3:37 PM


Re: Perfect Man
What was the potential to sin?
Let's use some deductive reasoning here:
God created everything, right? If Adam was able to sin, then God was the one that made that possible. That being the case, does that make God culpable for the sin itself?
If he had committed no sin he was not under the penalty of sin.
That's really an impossibility, isn't it? If no human has ever been free from sin, we could reasonably say that it is impossible to remain righteous, couldn't we? And if God is the perfect Creator of all, then it's a reasonable conclusion that God made us to sin. That makes God complicit in our sin.
Mankind can believe God and trust Him to give them eternal life or the result is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.
We could also believe in Allah too, or face the same fate. Should we therefore believe in Allah because of the supposed consequences?
What you get for sin is death.
And it is impossible not to sin. Who's fault is that?
We agree sin is not inherited.
quote:
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned -- Romans 5:12
We agree that man has the ability to choose to sin or not to sin.
No, not really. If God imparted the desire to sin, we don't have a fighting chance, evidenced by the very need for Jesus Christ as the atonement.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ICANT, posted 06-08-2010 3:37 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ICANT, posted 06-15-2010 2:11 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 132 of 139 (565205)
06-15-2010 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Hyroglyphx
06-15-2010 11:30 AM


Re: Perfect Man
Hi Hyro,
Hyroglyphx writes:
God created everything, right? If Adam was able to sin, then God was the one that made that possible. That being the case, does that make God culpable for the sin itself?
The perfect man was created with the ability to choose to obey a direct command or disobey that command.
He had no choice of being good or bad.
Hyroglyphx writes:
If he had committed no sin he was not under the penalty of sin.
That's really an impossibility, isn't it? If no human has ever been free from sin,
But this man was created free from sin and the penalty of sin.
Had he never chose to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would have never been under the penalty of sin and would be alive today. We would not exist.
Hyroglyphx writes:
We could also believe in Allah too, or face the same fate. Should we therefore believe in Allah because of the supposed consequences?
It's up to you to find the truth and if you don't you will be separated from God for eternity according to the manuel he left us.
Hyroglyphx writes:
And it is impossible not to sin. Who's fault is that?
The man who ate the fruit.
Hyroglphx writes:
No, not really.
You have a gun in your hand you point it at a person the gun is loaded with live rounds. Are you saying you can not make the choice to pull the trigger and kill the person or to lower the gun and walk away?
Take the responsibility for your own actions no one makes you do anything.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-15-2010 11:30 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-16-2010 2:55 PM ICANT has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 139 (565396)
06-16-2010 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ICANT
06-15-2010 2:11 PM


Re: Perfect Man
The perfect man was created with the ability to choose to obey a direct command or disobey that command.
Define "perfect" in context with humans. Because my understanding would be, if Adam was perfect, he wouldn't have sinned.
He had no choice of being good or bad.
Exactly my point. That's God's doing.
But this man was created free from sin and the penalty of sin.
Had he never chose to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would have never been under the penalty of sin and would be alive today. We would not exist.
Yes, but he didn't know what sin or death was, so it was unavoidable.
What we can deduce from the story:
  • God imparted man's desires (because they didn't create themselves).
  • God placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in their path. What purpose does it serve other than to tempt?
  • A & E did not know it was wrong to eat the fruit before, because only by eating the fruit does sin reveal itself.
  • God placed the Serpent in the Garden with the foreknowledge that he would tempt them, and before they knew right from wrong.
    Add that all up and you can only reasonably conclude a few things. God was setting up the Fall of Man and he actually made that happen without jeopardizing freewill.
    It's up to you to find the truth and if you don't you will be separated from God for eternity according to the manuel he left us.
    Awesome God!
    quote:
    And it is impossible not to sin. Who's fault is that?
    The man who ate the fruit.
    How? Would you blame the baby for lighting the house on fire when the parent gave it the matches, or would you blame the parent?
    You have a gun in your hand you point it at a person the gun is loaded with live rounds. Are you saying you can not make the choice to pull the trigger and kill the person or to lower the gun and walk away?
    You need to look at this story in context. They did NOT know right from wrong BEFORE they ate the fruit, right? You and I have hindsight, they did not.
    Take the responsibility for your own actions no one makes you do anything.
    Yeah, for us, living in the here and the now. What about Adam and Eve who didn't even have a fighting chance? Add it up, it's as clear as day. In fact, God is the culpable one in the story because he holds all the chips.

    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 132 by ICANT, posted 06-15-2010 2:11 PM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 134 by ICANT, posted 06-16-2010 3:58 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6769
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 134 of 139 (565403)
    06-16-2010 3:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 133 by Hyroglyphx
    06-16-2010 2:55 PM


    Re: Perfect Man
    Hi Hyro,
    Hyroglyphx writes:
    Yes, but he didn't know what sin or death was, so it was unavoidable.
    Why do you assume the man that could name all the animals was so dumb as to not know what God was talking about.
    Hyroglyphx writes:
    God imparted man's desires (because they didn't create themselves).
    Man acquired those desires when he disobeyed the one command given to him.
    Hyroglyphx writes:
    God placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in their path. What purpose does it serve other than to tempt?
    If there was no tree there would be no choice.
    Hyroglyphx writes:
    A & E did not know it was wrong to eat the fruit before, because only by eating the fruit does sin reveal itself.
    The penalty existed before the eating of the fruit as it existed after the eating of the fruit.
    That man could choose to eat the fruit or choose not to eat the fruit. Knowing if he ate the fruit he would die.
    Hyroglphx writes:
    God placed the Serpent in the Garden with the foreknowledge that he would tempt them, and before they knew right from wrong.
    God did not cause Satan to enter the serpent and tempt Eve.
    But regadless of that temptation the man who was commanded to not eat the fruit was not tempted by anyone. The woman gave him the fruit and he chose to eat it. He could have obeyed God instead.
    Hyroglyphx writes:
    How? Would you blame the baby for lighting the house on fire when the parent gave it the matches, or would you blame the parent?
    This man was no baby. He had the ability to name all living creatures so he was smarter than a fifth grader or Hyroglyphx.
    Hyroglyphx writes:
    You need to look at this story in context. They did NOT know right from wrong BEFORE they ate the fruit, right? You and I have hindsight, they did not.
    What makes you think these peple were stupid?
    Hyroglyphx writes:
    Yeah, for us, living in the here and the now. What about Adam and Eve who didn't even have a fighting chance? Add it up, it's as clear as day.
    He did just like people today. The man blamed God because God had given him the woman who blamed who blamed the snake because Satan had spoke through him.
    The snake is the only one that got a raw deal. He lost his legs and has to crawl on his belly eating dust all his life. And there is no way he could keep Statan from speaking through him.
    Everybody else had a choice in the matter.
    Just as you have a choice today.
    Since we are a long way off topic I won't be continuing this further in this thread. The cause of sin has no bearing on whether sin is inheritable or not.
    God Bless,

    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 133 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-16-2010 2:55 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 137 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-17-2010 12:17 PM ICANT has replied

      
    Peg
    Member (Idle past 4948 days)
    Posts: 2703
    From: melbourne, australia
    Joined: 11-22-2008


    Message 135 of 139 (565462)
    06-17-2010 12:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 130 by Hyroglyphx
    06-15-2010 11:13 AM


    Hyroglyphx writes:
    In other words, let's say that genocide is wrong. Suppose God kills a whole bunch of people. Is he wrong? No, but only by the virtue that you claim he's perfect. Indeed you will find ways that he's righteous even in the face of transparent hypocrisy.
    we are not in the position that God is in. His position as the ultimate authority gives him the legal right to put a person to death if he deems it necessary....its not hypocrisy on his part to do so...its his responsibility.
    Hyroglyphx writes:
    When did Satan fall, and why?
    we dont know exactly when he fell, but we do know that it was before he interferred with the tree of knowledge. Ezekiel 38:`12-15 speaks prophetically of Satan in this way:
    "12Son of man, lift up a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and you must say to him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said:
    ‘You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o‧lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you"
    it would appear that Satan developed 'unrighteousness' It was a gradual process with him just as it can be a gradual process with us.
    James 1:14But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death
    Hyroglyphx writes:
    But no human has ever been fully obedient to God. That's the whole reason for Jesus, remember?
    thats not quite right. There were many examples of people who did in fact choose to remain faithful to God.... people such as Abel, Noah, Abraham, King David and the list goes on.
    I think what you mean to say is that no one of mankind were ever able to remain 'perfectly obedient' and that is quite true. But that is due to inborn imperfection and thats why God uses his mercy to forgive us of our mistakes.
    Jesus was sent as the means by which we can have our imperfection removed completely in order that we can become perfect.
    OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
    AdminPD
    Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 130 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-15-2010 11:13 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 136 by AdminPD, posted 06-17-2010 7:25 AM Peg has not replied

      
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