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Author Topic:   Identifying false religions.
subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 266 of 479 (569770)
07-23-2010 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by jar
07-23-2010 6:05 PM


Re: on GOD
I guess it depends on what you consider evidence it does not exist. Suppose it is described as having attributes that are inconsistent with the laws of physics?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 6:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 6:21 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 271 of 479 (569781)
07-23-2010 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by jar
07-23-2010 6:21 PM


Re: on GOD
I would agree. So, would you consider that evidence that it does not exist?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 6:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 7:11 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 274 of 479 (569784)
07-23-2010 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by jar
07-23-2010 7:11 PM


Re: on GOD
Suppose it is described as producing effects in the real world and there is no credible evidence that such effects have ever been observed?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 7:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 7:35 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 281 of 479 (569799)
07-23-2010 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by jar
07-23-2010 7:35 PM


Re: on GOD
Well, I don't see a problem there at all.
For example, I see no reason that the GOD I believe in couldn't get a doctor to try just one more test or drug, to consider one more idea, to interfere in events here at will.
That, of course, is not responsive to my question. Don't assume that I'm necessarily alluding to anything in particular with my questions. I'm not playing gotcha. I'm exploring the parameters of your general claim that if there's no evidence one way or another, it's rational to say "I don't know."
Now, please answer the actual hypothetical. If certain effects are predicted and those effects are not observed, is that evidence of non-existence?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 7:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 8:58 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 283 of 479 (569803)
07-23-2010 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by jar
07-23-2010 8:58 PM


Re: on GOD
Seems pretty simple to me, when there is no evidence either way the MOST rational position IMHO is to say "I don't know".
It certainly does seem simple at first blush. That's why exploring it further is so interesting.
There's no evidence regarding Russell's teapot. Do you say "I don't know?"
Edited by subbie, : Tweak language

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 8:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 9:16 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 285 of 479 (569809)
07-23-2010 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by jar
07-23-2010 9:16 PM


Re: on GOD
Me? Of course.
Wonderful.
You and I have never met. You've never seen a picture of me, to the best of my recollection. Would you maintain an agnostic position if someone claimed that I had an 80 year old oak tree growing out of my left ear?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 9:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 9:24 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 287 of 479 (569812)
07-23-2010 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by jar
07-23-2010 9:24 PM


Re: on GOD
Did you see the additions I made (while you were posting I fear)?
I did not, but not to worry. As I said, I'm not playing gotcha, looking for inconsistencies that I can then wave in the air and claim victory. I'm exploring parameters.
The answer to this latest question is that I would be very doubtful about that. I would have a high degree of confidence that you do not have an 80 year old oak tree growing out of your ear.
Okay, so why agnostic about Russell's teapot but skeptical about subbie's oak tree?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 9:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 9:37 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 291 of 479 (569825)
07-23-2010 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by jar
07-23-2010 9:37 PM


Re: on GOD
Perhaps I'm reading too much into what you're saying. I assumed that when you said, "I don't know," that meant completely no position on the matter. Not likely, not unlikely, not even slightly more likely that not. I assumed it meant no opinion whatsoever on likelihood.
How do you feel about Sagan's famous aphorism, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?"

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 9:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 10:59 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 294 of 479 (569833)
07-23-2010 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by jar
07-23-2010 10:59 PM


Re: on GOD
So when you say, "I don't know," you mean that you lack absolute or near absolute certainty about the matter, although you may have a belief about the likelihood of the matter. Do I have it right?
It would make a nice bumper sticker.
It probably does. The gist of my question, however, was whether you agree with it.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 10:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 11:17 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 296 of 479 (569836)
07-23-2010 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by jar
07-23-2010 11:17 PM


Re: on GOD
So when you say
Well, if there is neither evidence something exists or does not exist I would think it was rational to say..."I don't know."
that could include you believing that it's nearly absolutely certain to be so, but not 100% certain.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 07-23-2010 11:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by jar, posted 07-24-2010 9:58 AM subbie has not replied

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