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Author Topic:   I need an answer
RyanVanGo
Junior Member (Idle past 3360 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 06-16-2010


Message 1 of 58 (565372)
06-16-2010 11:34 AM


As a child of 12 years of catholic school, and a science enthusiasts I have been torn by the argument for as long as I can remember. Now from the reading and documentaries I've come across, I have simplified the 2 sides down to this:

Evolution: Here's our proof, here's what we know so far, there's a few holes, but we're working on it.

Creation: There's too many holes in evolution, it must be creation.

so the creationism theory says "Evolution isn't all correct, so it must be this" without giving me as much proof as evolution has. please someone show me the proof. Let me put it this way (while watching a documentary by Kent Hovind).

Just because you can point out a handful of inconsistencies with modern science laws pointing to evolution and the age of the earth and so forth, does not make your theory stronger. you're not posing a theory, your basing a belief on the inconsistencies of another theory. A long time ago man believed the earth was flat. we didn't know any better. If Dr. Hovind was alive back then he would say "no your science is wrong, explain the currents or weather patterns or magnetic poles, it must be God". well then a hundred years later we could explain these things, and his argument is now null and void. So if you consider that we are still learning things, the things he calls in to question (rotation of planets, formation of matter/energies etc.) can not be answered now, but could be answered in 100 years, it makes his argument ineffective. Instead i need to see proof that the earth WAS formed 10000 years ago, and not only that, but that God is the one who formed it, with his hands, in 6 days. WITHOUT saying that our theories are wrong, but proposing new ones. please. my sanity and spirituality are on the line here.


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Message 2 of 58 (565578)
06-18-2010 7:13 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the I need an answer thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 3 of 58 (565581)
06-18-2010 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RyanVanGo
06-16-2010 11:34 AM


Hello RyanVanGo, welcome to EvC!

RyanVanGo writes:

Instead i need to see proof that the earth WAS formed 10000 years ago, and not only that, but that God is the one who formed it, with his hands, in 6 days. WITHOUT saying that our theories are wrong, but proposing new ones.


You won't get any, there isn't any evidence.

please. my sanity and spirituality are on the line here.

I'm intrigued by this statement, tell me, in what way are your sanity and spirituality at stake here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RyanVanGo, posted 06-16-2010 11:34 AM RyanVanGo has not yet responded

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 2644 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


(1)
Message 4 of 58 (565583)
06-18-2010 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RyanVanGo
06-16-2010 11:34 AM


Hi RyanVanGo, and welcome.

Am I right in understanding that you're 12?

If so, then speaking as someone who has taught secondary school for years, I admire the degree of thought you are putting into these issues, especially if you are being told one thing at home and another elsewhere. That must be very difficult.

So are your family creationists? This is a little unusual for Catholics. The Catholic church has never come out and said that evolution is wrong and it has never supported creationism, though different Popes have had different views. Is your school actually teaching you creationism as well? I wasn't aware of this occurring in Catholic schools.

I myself grew up as a strong Catholic (I wanted to be a nun when I was young) and I also loved science. I never saw a conflict between religion and science. As many Catholics do, my family saw the Genesis story and other stories in the Bible as allegories rather than as factual events. The story of Adam and Eve is interesting to study from a number of viewpoints; it can teach you about the culture from which it originated, it can tell you about human psychology, and many of its images are echoed in other religions and myths throughout the world. This doesn't mean that Jesus never existed, or that what he said was wrong.

You'll find a lot of people on this forum who believe in God and still pursue their love of science. I'm sure some of them will join this thread eventually.

And it's good to know that you are seeing through Kent Hovind's claims. He knows little about science despite what he says (his degree is from a diploma mill); in fact, it's because of what he says that it's obvious he usually doesn't know what he's talking about.

There is a great deal of evidence for evolution and an old earth. I'm not sure where it would be best to start with this because they're such enormous topics. Is there an area you are especially interested in, like geology, astronomy or human origins?

As for me, I stopped being Catholic when I was 18. My parents were dismayed and for a while my father forced me to keep going to church under the threat of kicking me out of the house. I just kept my ideas to myself and got on with my life really; it's just not something we talk about now. It was a frightening time because I'd been raised to never upset my parents, but I knew in my heart that I was right. (This had nothing to do with evolution by the way; it was about how I had come to define the kind of spirituality I wanted to pursue.)

I'm looking forward to further discussions with you, hope you find it interesting here I've learned more about science than I ever learned in school through talking on forums like this.

Edited by Kitsune, : No reason given.

Edited by Kitsune, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RyanVanGo, posted 06-16-2010 11:34 AM RyanVanGo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2010 11:06 PM Kitsune has responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 20332
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Message 5 of 58 (565668)
06-18-2010 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RyanVanGo
06-16-2010 11:34 AM


The evidence says the earth is old.
Welcome to the fray RyanVanGo.

I have simplified the 2 sides down to this:

Evolution: Here's our proof, here's what we know so far, there's a few holes, but we're working on it.

Creation: There's too many holes in evolution, it must be creation.

so the creationism theory says "Evolution isn't all correct, so it must be this" without giving me as much proof as evolution has. please someone show me the proof. ...

... Instead i need to see proof that the earth WAS formed 10000 years ago, and not only that, but that God is the one who formed it, with his hands, in 6 days. WITHOUT saying that our theories are wrong, but proposing new ones. ...

Sad to say, I don't think you will find evidence for this, and the reasons are many: all the evidence that points to the earth being billions of years old.

See the posts in the Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 thread detailing not just the evidence for an earth significantly older than 10,000 years, but the correlations between the methods that validate each other, because there is no reason for these correlations ... without age.

I've posted this same reply there, so that you can follow up on that thread if you want. Note that the thread is about how various different counting methods show that the earth is significantly older than 10,000 years, and that the correlations between all these methods is explained by an old earth.

Let me put it this way (while watching a documentary by Kent Hovind).

Kent Hovind is not a reliabe source of information. For instance his argument about how the Grand Canyon was formed is contradicted by his argument about how the Grand Canyon was formed. I can provide details if you want them, but perhaps that should be on another thread.

Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 6 of 58 (565669)
06-18-2010 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Kitsune
06-18-2010 8:32 AM


Am I right in understanding that you're 12?

I don't think so. He says he's a "child of twelve years of catholic school", not "a child of twelve years, at a catholic school". I therefore take "child" in its metaphorical sense of "product of" and "twelve years" to say how long he went to a catholic school, not how old he is.


This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 7 of 58 (565671)
06-18-2010 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RyanVanGo
06-16-2010 11:34 AM


Re: Age of Earth
Hi Ryan,
Welcome to EvC.

RyanVanGo writes:

Instead i need to see proof that the earth WAS formed 10000 years ago,

You won't find that answer from science or from the Bible.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

There is no date given for the beginning.

This from a born again child of the King.

God Bless you in your search,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RyanVanGo, posted 06-16-2010 11:34 AM RyanVanGo has not yet responded

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 2644 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 8 of 58 (565678)
06-19-2010 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
06-18-2010 11:06 PM


Kitsune writes:

Am I right in understanding that you're 12?


Dr. Adequate writes:


I don't think so. He says he's a "child of twelve years of catholic school", not "a child of twelve years, at a catholic school". I therefore take "child" in its metaphorical sense of "product of" and "twelve years" to say how long he went to a catholic school, not how old he is.

It isn't clear to me one way or the other.

But if the good doctor is right and the poster of the OP is an adult, I apologise for what must sound like a patronising tone. I think the content of my message would essentially be the same though.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Son
Member (Idle past 2174 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 9 of 58 (565681)
06-19-2010 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RyanVanGo
06-16-2010 11:34 AM


Just to put the answers you've received in context (in case you are not used to this site), none of the replies so far were from Young Earth Creationnists, ICANT is an Old Earth Creationnist and the others are not Creationnists, so I don't think they would be able to give the answers from the side you're looking for. As for your question, you're not alone wondering about that. Myself, I started a thread some times ago asking something a bit like this about Intelligent Design, specifically asking not to reference Evolution but it became a mess, Evolution was cited a number of times I think (more than 1000 posts in this thread so I gave up on it and I can't tell if someone finally gave an answer) and no clear unique answers. The most complete answer was from Slevesque I think.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1801 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 10 of 58 (565687)
06-19-2010 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RyanVanGo
06-16-2010 11:34 AM


Why The Need for Proof?
quote:
Instead i need to see proof that the earth WAS formed 10000 years ago, and not only that, but that God is the one who formed it, with his hands, in 6 days. WITHOUT saying that our theories are wrong, but proposing new ones. please. my sanity and spirituality are on the line here.
Why do you need proof for either side concerning creation? Will it change your day to day activities? Will it change how you manifest your belief system? Will it change whether you have a belief system or not?

If the answer is no to all of those, then your sanity and spirituality are not on the line.

Religion is not science.

Biblical Creation and Storytelling
ABSTRACT: The literary conventions employed in Genesis chapter 1 mark it out, not as a scientific document describing material origins, but as a literary polemic against surrounding ancient Near Eastern pagan religions. This interpretation divests the text from any obligation to communicate “accurate science” to the modern reader. Genesis 1 is a theological-political document that has nothing to do with science as the modern reader understands it. Creation language here and elsewhere in Scripture is not about establishing scientific origins of material substance and structure but about covenantal establishment and worldview.

The creation stories are not science and were not intended to give the answer you're looking for. Try to understand the stories as their original audience would have understood them.

Interpreting the creation story of Genesis with an expectation of modern scientific discourse is hermeneutical violence. The notion of creation and existence in the biblical ancient Near East was not one of physics, life sciences, material substance and structure, it was a story explaining the creation of the functions of the world through naming, separation and purpose. Purpose (teleology) is theological not empirical and does not therefore require any scientific theory, be it young earth creationism or theistic evolution.

I enjoy science but the age of the planet has no bearing on my daily life or my spiritual life.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

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Replies to this message:
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RyanVanGo
Junior Member (Idle past 3360 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 06-16-2010


Message 11 of 58 (566014)
06-22-2010 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Kitsune
06-19-2010 3:39 AM


Thanks for the reply
well as was previously discussed, no I am not 12, although my grammar would lead you to believe that. I spent 12 years in catholic school, which surprisingly enough did teach us about other religions, the creation theory, and other popular questions, while focusing on the catholic faith. I think it's because of these schools (3 in total) that i think the way i do now. without meaning to, the nuns, priests, and teachers taught me to draw my own conclusions and ask a lot of questions, which I think is the way to be strong in your faith, rather than blindly following it.

In response to the other posters, I'm seeing a lot of what I thought about before, i.e. the creation theory is not dependent on fact, rather it is dependent on attempting to refute fact. I will give the theory credit for doing it's research, but the problem still remains that the research is misguided. They are attempting to prove the an apple is not an apple if sometimes it is green.

I do think very similar to you though, that the stories in the bible are meant to take a lesson from. There IS a definite possibility that there is truth within the bible, that parts CAN be taken as a historical documentation, however large parts simply do not add up or contradict themselves. I can provide further clarification on this if requested.

my stance is as follows (for now):
I believe that Jesus died for my sins, that he is the son of God. God created everything and has a divine plan. The Earth WAS NOT created 10,000 years ago. the vast majority of the bible is to give us a way to live and be good to others.

I am 24 years old, in the military, and have an appointment with a priest this weekend to have a further debate on the subject (respectfully of course), I'll let you know how it goes!


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RyanVanGo
Junior Member (Idle past 3360 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 06-16-2010


Message 12 of 58 (566017)
06-22-2010 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by purpledawn
06-19-2010 8:05 AM


Re: Why The Need for Proof?
Well quite simply, no one ever specifically told me if i was supposed to take the bible literally. My faith(as stated above) is based on an almost Aesop's Fables idea, which to some is blasphemous. So if it's ever proven that the earth is 10,000 years old, that's the first step in a whole new series of questions to determine who/what i believe in. Right now, the reason I've really started to chase this down, is that my belief that the story of Jesus may be not just inaccurate but a 100% complete fabrication. I like the idea that this was the son of God and died for my sins, despite that fact that there is no evidence, besides the bible and folklore (for lack of a more respectable term).

It's a vicious cycle really. I have already questioned and eventually denied almost everything in that book because of rational thought, which soon I'm afraid will cause me to deny the entire book, then deny the existence of God or a god. to the atheist this doesn't matter, but when you go further it means there is no reason, short of self preservation, to obey any sort of morals. It's kind of depressing really.

Maybe I'll bump that appointment up to Thursday. I have the day off anyway.


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Huntard
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 13 of 58 (566022)
06-22-2010 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by RyanVanGo
06-22-2010 1:36 PM


Re: Why The Need for Proof?
RyanVanGo writes:

Right now, the reason I've really started to chase this down, is that my belief that the story of Jesus may be not just inaccurate but a 100% complete fabrication.


Well, even I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a complete fabrication, and I'm an atheist. there are probably some true things to the stories, though I do think all the miraculous stuff has no basis in reality whatsoever.

Would it be possible for you to view Jesus as some kind of teacher with some pretty good ideas?

I like the idea that this was the son of God and died for my sins, despite that fact that there is no evidence, besides the bible and folklore (for lack of a more respectable term).

Well, what I think it basically comes down to is this:

Do you care if what you believe is true?

If you just want what you believe to make you feel comfortable, then there really is no point into all these questions. However if you care about your beliefs being true, then you might be in for a shock, because what makes you feel comfortable might not be true.

It's a vicious cycle really. I have already questioned and eventually denied almost everything in that book because of rational thought, which soon I'm afraid will cause me to deny the entire book, then deny the existence of God or a god.

And why does this scare you?

to the atheist this doesn't matter, but when you go further it means there is no reason, short of self preservation, to obey any sort of morals. It's kind of depressing really.

Since I'm an atheist, and I do follow morals, perhaps you should talk to me (and other atheists) why we do follow morals. I'll give you a small hint: We don't think life is meaningless beyond self preservation. Only, we supply our own reason. In fact, realising there is no after life makes me want to live this life to the fullest, making sure I contribute to that wonderful species that is humanity, and I am privileged to be a part of.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RyanVanGo
Junior Member (Idle past 3360 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 06-16-2010


Message 14 of 58 (566030)
06-22-2010 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Huntard
06-22-2010 1:47 PM


Re: Why The Need for Proof?
I'm new to the forum thing so I'll do it this way:
"We don't think life is meaningless beyond self preservation. Only, we supply our own reason. In fact, realising there is no after life makes me want to live this life to the fullest, making sure I contribute to that wonderful species that is humanity, and I am privileged to be a part of. "

I know the way I worded it was too simplistic, and I regret doing so now. Of course if I were to find out that everything I believe in is a fallacy, I wouldn't just up and abandon my way of life, taking what I want, cheating on my wife for the sake of mass procreation (or for any other reason haha), or just generally being a nuisance. I do have morals, regardless of my beliefs. So please don't take that the wrong way.

Afraid probably wasn't a good word either, but if I think about it a bit, it is a bit frightening to think that what I've believe in for my whole life could possibly be completely wrong, then it's a bit unsettling. I'm sure when we discovered the earth was round some people freaked out a bit.

As to the rest, I do take Jesus to be a teacher, and I do not necessarily believe in the miracles he performed but take them as a teaching. But I do care if what I believe is true or not. It's silly to think that even though asking questions is what I do (don't think it's just about faith either) I am still so stubborn, that once someone proves that what I think is wrong, I will probably start arguing the other side. It would probably take God standing in front of me saying "Ryan, there's no such thing as God" to convince me. Then my head would explode.

But, even though I'm stubborn, I'm still a glutton for new information. If anyone thinks it's too complex, I'm a research fanatic. if you think i won't understand, i probably won't, but again, I'm stubborn, and I'll find out, if I have to teach myself astrology, astronomy, genetics, geology, whatever to a doctorate level i will get my answers. and if you think I'm too stubborn to accept what your saying, post anyway, because i am open minded, and someone else may stumble upon this thread...

so have at it, I'll be checking in frequently (creationists STRONGLY encouraged because I haven't heard much from them)
Thanks everyone,
Ryan


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Huntard
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 15 of 58 (566031)
06-22-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RyanVanGo
06-22-2010 2:04 PM


Re: Why The Need for Proof?
RyanVanGo writes:

I'm new to the forum thing so I'll do it this way:


Free tip: Use the "peek" button on the bottom left of this post to see how I did those neat little quote boxes.

I know the way I worded it was too simplistic, and I regret doing so now. Of course if I were to find out that everything I believe in is a fallacy, I wouldn't just up and abandon my way of life, taking what I want, cheating on my wife for the sake of mass procreation (or for any other reason haha), or just generally being a nuisance. I do have morals, regardless of my beliefs. So please don't take that the wrong way.

Don't worry, I didn't. I know that coming from a belief in god to a non belief in god doesn't change the "fundamental" person. I used to believe in god, and like you went to catholic school for 8 years(my little brother even went for 13). Although, I'm guessing that here in the Netherlands they might be a bit different, I was never taught by nuns or priests, for instance, although a priest did use to come along one hour a week to talk about Catholicism.

Afraid probably wasn't a good word either, but if I think about it a bit, it is a bit frightening to think that what I've believe in for my whole life could possibly be completely wrong, then it's a bit unsettling. I'm sure when we discovered the earth was round some people freaked out a bit.

In fact, when we discovered the earth was round (the ancient Greeks and Egyptians already knew this, for example) there were still people refusing to believe it. But why be frightened of being wrong? I'm probably wrong about a lot of things, I am not afraid to be wrong however. You know why? Because every time I find out I am wrong, I will have learned a thing that is actually true!

As to the rest, I do take Jesus to be a teacher, and I do not necessarily believe in the miracles he performed but take them as a teaching. But I do care if what I believe is true or not. It's silly to think that even though asking questions is what I do (don't think it's just about faith either) I am still so stubborn, that once someone proves that what I think is wrong, I will probably start arguing the other side. It would probably take God standing in front of me saying "Ryan, there's no such thing as God" to convince me. Then my head would explode.

Bear in mind that not many people say that there absolutely is no god. It's just that,, we see no evidence for his existence, and so, we question why we should belief in something that has not been demonstrated to exist. For example, If I were to tell you about aa nice little leprechaun, that does my dishes and cleans my house, and all I offer you is that story, yet when questioned further, I reply: It's my faith that he does, I have never actually seen him, I've never spoken to him, I just like the idea of him cleaning my place up.

Does that sound convincing to you? This is the position I am in regarding god.

Also, would't god standing in front of you telling you there is no god be a little bit contradictory? It would make my head explode, that's for sure.

But, even though I'm stubborn, I'm still a glutton for new information. If anyone thinks it's too complex, I'm a research fanatic. if you think i won't understand, i probably won't, but again, I'm stubborn, and I'll find out, if I have to teach myself astrology, astronomy, genetics, geology, whatever to a doctorate level i will get my answers. and if you think I'm too stubborn to accept what your saying, post anyway, because i am open minded, and someone else may stumble upon this thread...

No, I don;t think you're stubborn. It's a fase I went through myself (although admittedly, I was younger than you). Also, I like your attitude. A whole lot, actually.

so have at it, I'll be checking in frequently (creationists STRONGLY encouraged because I haven't heard much from them)
Thanks everyone,
Ryan

You're welcome mate. Let us know if there's anything else we can do for you.

Oh, and let us know how the talk with the priest went, if you are so inclined.


This message is a reply to:
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