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Author Topic:   Problems with evolution? Submit your questions.
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 733 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 55 of 752 (566227)
06-23-2010 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ICANT
06-23-2010 3:06 PM


Re: Question
ICANT writes:

So where did the information come from that caused the mutation?

If the source of information is external to the organism, radiation, viruses and mutagenic chemicals are the most common.

I can understand how the reduction of information could happen.

But not how it could increase as new information would need to be coded. There is no known natural process for this to happen.

What's unnatural about the things I mentioned? What's unnatural about chemistry?

The mutations are changes in information, and therefore, by definition, new information. There can be environmental input in their cause, as I explained above.

However, the really important input of information from the environment is in the selection process. It is this that causes a mutation that happens to improve function to go to fixation across a population.

So, what's necessary to add "coded information", as you describe it, is an information rich environment.

A planet with a wide range of ever changing environments will input a great deal of information into varying chemical self-replicators.

We live on such a planet. Information is all around us, ready to be absorbed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:06 PM ICANT has not yet responded

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 733 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 56 of 752 (566231)
06-23-2010 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
06-23-2010 3:40 PM


Re: Question
ICANT writes:

Do you have an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally?

Anything you observe that you care to describe as a code or language occurs naturally, so far as our observations can tell us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:40 PM ICANT has not yet responded

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 733 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 201 of 752 (577485)
08-29-2010 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by dennis780
08-21-2010 4:56 PM


600 does not equal ONE!
dennis780 writes:

I've heard mention of the E-coli evolution miracle. Since all that happened was a group of e-coli lost control of the switch that allows them to metabolize citrate in low or no oxygen environments, it's fair to claim that whether information was gained or lost genetically is irrelevant (even though it was not gained), the one mutation that occurred at 20,000 and 32,000 generations does not give enough time for evolution. Over "10 trillion E-coli have been produced over the 22 year old experiment", equalling 1 million years of human life, and ONE genetic mutation has occurred.

ONE GENETIC MUTATION? What? You'll never learn from reading Conservapedia, Dennis.

Here's a chart of just one of the Lenski cultures after 20,000 generations, half way through the experiment, which shows the differences from the ancestral organism. Click on the pic. to enlarge.

Here, you see a graph of the increase in fitness over the first 20,000 generations, with another graph inset which shows the sharp increase in mutation rate and fitness after a mutator phenotype appeared and took over the population (at about 26,000 generations).

Click Pic.

There are over 600 differences from the ancestor at 40,000 generations.

Edited by bluegenes, : deleted surplus phrase


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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 733 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 215 of 752 (577706)
08-30-2010 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Wounded King
08-30-2010 2:47 AM


Re: Shocking lack of amino acids in DNA
WK writes:

Dennis writes:

amino acid sequences in nucleotides

What is it with creationists/IDists and this nonsense. This is something like the third one we have had turning up here talking about amino acids in DNA. Is there some sort of handbook about how to show you know nothing about genetics/molecular biology that they are all following?

A quick search for "amino acid sequences in neucleotides" shows that our Dennis has got a first there, and could start an interesting meme.

However, for your phrase "amino acids in DNA", here's a wonderful source that will revolutionise your view of what you see in the lab.

The Divine Secrets.

Phrase highlighted several paragraphs down.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Wounded King, posted 08-30-2010 2:47 AM Wounded King has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Theodoric, posted 08-30-2010 10:33 AM bluegenes has not yet responded
 Message 221 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 6:14 AM bluegenes has responded

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 733 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 225 of 752 (577952)
08-31-2010 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by dennis780
08-31-2010 6:14 AM


Shocking lack of amino acids in DNA + shocking maths.
Try this for a good search:

"22 year old experiment", equalling 1 million years of human life, and ONE genetic mutation has occurred."

Then try this, and click on the first result.

"600 does not equal ONE!"

You should now be on my post Message 201, which you avoided replying to.

Do you still think that 600 = ONE?

When you've answered, I'll show you plenty of evidence for new information and complexity, which seems to be what you're looking for.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 6:14 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 733 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 266 of 752 (578770)
09-02-2010 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by dennis780
09-02-2010 4:03 AM


More new information for Dennis
Hi, dennis780.

I realise that you're nervous about discussing things with me since I pointed out that you didn't know the difference between one mutation and 600 mutations.

However, I'm still happy to help you in your earnest request for examples of new information.

You'll find this review interesting, as it will help you understand some ways in which new information is produced resulting in phenotype novelty, and how the complexity of genomes can increase easily by mutation.

Gene duplication and evolutionary novelty in plants - Lex E. Flagel, Jonathan F. Wendel


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by dennis780, posted 09-02-2010 4:03 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 733 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 267 of 752 (578772)
09-02-2010 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by abrown9
09-02-2010 2:20 PM


Welcome
abrown9 to dennis writes:

Did you read the link I sent you or even address the point I was making?

You'll be lucky, mate.

I'm just posting to say welcome to EvC, and yes, of course, your link showed what Dennis claims he's looking for, but always fails to see.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by abrown9, posted 09-02-2010 2:20 PM abrown9 has not yet responded

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