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Author Topic:   Problems with evolution? Submit your questions.
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 97 of 752 (575495)
08-20-2010 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Bolder-dash
08-20-2010 6:48 AM


So we could test your "theory" by ... finding an alternate universe without apples in it?
And we could test Carl Sagan's invisible dragon if God gave us a magic dragon detector.
And we could test the Omphalos hypothesis if only we owned a time machine
Your "theory" is right up there with textbook examples of things which are not really theories.
It can also be handily removed from consideration by Occam's Razor, since I can account for people's behavior (other then a tendency to say "Hey, I smell apples") without reference to the fragrance of apples.
---
Unless you are certain that your reserves of obtuseness are unlimited, perhaps you had better save them for something that you really need to misunderstand, such as evolution.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-20-2010 6:48 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 98 of 752 (575497)
08-20-2010 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Bolder-dash
08-20-2010 6:51 AM


Well, fortunately your ignorance of apples does not affect the validity of the theory.
Its complete lack of predictive power, on the other hand, affects the question of whether it is a theory.
Why don't you try to go read some books about apples.
Because the fact that you can think of no testable predictions of your "theory" cannot be remedied by me knowing more about apples.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-20-2010 6:51 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-20-2010 7:08 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 100 of 752 (575504)
08-20-2010 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Bolder-dash
08-20-2010 7:08 AM


I think you simply love oranges-so you refuse to accept reality.
Apparently you think a lot of dumb stuff.
However, indulging in silly fantasies about the people who disagree with you won't make your nonsense about apples scientific any more than it makes your nonsense about creationism scientific.
Come to think of it, creationism also involves dumb unevidenced ideas about fruit, doesn't it? I'm seeing a theme here.
All you need now is some sort of talking reptile in the mix and your novel "theory" of human emotions could be right up there with creationism.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 104 of 752 (575678)
08-20-2010 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by subbie
08-20-2010 7:23 PM


Correct me if I'm wrong (and there's a not insignificant chance that I am since I'm simply relying on my memory of something I thought I heard once), but isn't there some evidence to show that mutations are more likely to occur at certain locations than others? If that's true, doesn't that mean that there is an element of nonrandomness in mutations?
If you throw two dice, you're more likely to throw a seven than any other particular number, but that doesn't mean the result isn't random.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by subbie, posted 08-20-2010 7:23 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 08-20-2010 7:43 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 107 by subbie, posted 08-20-2010 7:49 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 105 of 752 (575680)
08-20-2010 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by abrown9
08-20-2010 12:58 PM


I know there was one experiment (I've searched and failed to find the link), where viruses were grown in an media containing all of the necessary amino acids for life. After many generations, pathogenic and other extraneous genes had been shed (through random mutation and selective pressure) in favour of an extremely small genome optimized for replication.
Surely these must have been bacteria, not viruses. This might help you to find the link.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by abrown9, posted 08-20-2010 12:58 PM abrown9 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-20-2010 8:47 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 113 by abrown9, posted 08-20-2010 8:51 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 109 of 752 (575687)
08-20-2010 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
08-20-2010 7:43 PM


Why is seven more likely than six or eight?
It might be clearer if your imaginary dice were two different colors.
Ways to make 7:
1 & 6
2 & 5
3 & 4
4 & 3
5 & 2
6 & 1
Ways to make 6:
1 & 5
2 & 4
3 & 3
4 & 2
5 & 1
Ways to make 8:
2 & 6
3 & 5
4 & 4
5 & 3
6 & 2

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 08-20-2010 7:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 08-20-2010 8:01 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 116 of 752 (575711)
08-20-2010 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by abrown9
08-20-2010 8:51 PM


Ah ... RNA species. Which aren't bacteria or viruses.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by abrown9, posted 08-20-2010 8:51 PM abrown9 has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 117 of 752 (575714)
08-20-2010 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Bolder-dash
08-20-2010 8:47 PM


Ha, I love it. Darwinian evolution, the greatest theory ever proposed, and you guys are struggling to find even ONE real experiment that makes any predictions whatsoever based on the mechanisms of your theory.
I can make one prediction for your theory. "Ask an evolutionist to provide evidence for their theory and they will carp and moan, and dodge, and cry foul and blame the lack of evidence on the ignorance of those who asked for it."
If you believe that this mishmash of lies and nonsense was in any way a reply to my post, which read, in full, "Surely these must have been bacteria, not viruses. This might help you to find the link", then perhaps you will say why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-20-2010 8:47 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by abrown9, posted 08-20-2010 9:38 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 120 of 752 (575766)
08-21-2010 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by dennis780
08-20-2010 11:13 PM


Mutation and natural selection are documented scientific processes. Dog breeders constantly 'weed' out genetic material that is undesirable to get a perfect breed look. This is micro evolution, which works on the principle of genetic loss over time.
This is not only false, but contrary to your admission that mutation is a "documented scientific process". Clearly a new mutation adds information to the gene pool.
No, actually, these experiments would only take millions of years if done on dogs, cats, humans, etc. There is experiments that are ongoing today, that have been for over 60 years until now, on fruit fly mutation. Since fruit flies have rapid generations, genetic mutation passed from generation to generation can be observed in a much faster timeframe.
And we have in fact observed novel mutations in fruit flies.
Spot anything new about the mutant type?
And incipient speciation
"Out of 400 mutations that have been provided by Drosophila melanogaster, there is not one that can be called a new species. It does not seem, therefore, that the central problem of evolution can be solved by mutations."*Maurice Caullery, Genetics and Heredity (1964), p. 119.
That was an odd thing for him to say. No-one supposes that a single point mutation is at all likely to produce speciation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by dennis780, posted 08-20-2010 11:13 PM dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by dennis780, posted 08-21-2010 4:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 121 of 752 (575769)
08-21-2010 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by dennis780
08-20-2010 11:13 PM


Note on mutation rates
Since fruit flies have rapid generations, genetic mutation passed from generation to generation can be observed in a much faster timeframe.
But the rate of mutation seems more closely linked to time elapsed than number of generations.
This is because a mutation in a germ-line cell such as an ovum or a cell in the testes can happen any time; it doesn't have to happen at the moment of conception.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 124 of 752 (575797)
08-21-2010 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by archaeologist
08-21-2010 3:12 AM


why do you and other evolutinists believe in something that you cannot prove exists? cannot put in a test tube and study? cannot prove is actually responsible for the so-called changes in life? that uses magic to intercept life and change it without observation of these events or verification that it really took place?
AND why do you believe in something that never existed in the first place?
You know, a lie is still a lie even if you disguise it as a question.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 126 of 752 (575806)
08-21-2010 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Bolder-dash
08-21-2010 4:35 AM


You think it was hard to understand that experiment?
What is actually hard to understand is how you see that experiment predicting a random mutation. That is virtually impossible to understand how you came to that conclusion-because that is not what happened at all-so how could one understand how someone such as you came to that conclusion?
He was right, you didn't understand it.
Insanity perhaps? Myoclonus? A chronic subdural hematoma? Its anyone's guess.
And apparently you suck at medicine too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-21-2010 4:35 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-21-2010 6:50 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 128 of 752 (575821)
08-21-2010 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Bolder-dash
08-21-2010 6:50 AM


Clearly you didn't understand it, because it demonstrated the exact opposite of a random mutation, it showed a produced mutation. A not very subtle difference that you would think even a simpleton like you would get.
A mutagen only increases the mutation rate, it doesn't actually have magical powers.
And there is, of course, a background level of his operon repair in the absence of a mutagen, as a few seconds' thought would have suggested to you and a few seconds' research would have confirmed.
That is why so many of the things you say are just such complete crap. And you don't even care that what you are saying is crap, because you just enjoying making lots of schoolyard worthy ad hominem horseshit statements that have no value at all. Is there anyone on this forum who even comes close to the horseshit you say? I am sure you will say I do, but the evidence shows that I could never ever compete with the stench and grand volume of fetid rot you post here.
Have I vexed you in some way? Tsk tsk.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-21-2010 6:50 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 144 of 752 (575925)
08-21-2010 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by dennis780
08-21-2010 4:56 PM


I never claimed that a mutation added information.
No, I did. 'Cos it's obviously true. If you have a population all with the same allele of a gene, and then a mutation occurs introducing a new allele, you now have more information in the gene pool, because you have two alleles where previously you had one.
"These restrictive breeding practices reduce effective population size and increase overall genetic drift among domestic dogs, resulting in the loss of genetic diversity within breeds and greater divergence among them," writes Ostrander, who participated in a landmark study of the genomic relationship of 85 different dog breeds. "For example, variation among breeds accounts for 27% of total genetic variation, as opposed to 5-10% among human populations"
Is any further comment necessary?
It is manifestly the case that dog breeding has increased the information in the gene pool of Canis lupus, because the information to make wolves still exists, but has been supplemented by the information to make dalmatians and dachsunds and poodles and bulldogs and Old Enlish sheepdogs ... and so forth ...
My point is, and if you read the link a little more (I'll post some below), that of all the documented 400 mutations, none added new information, and none of the species survived. ALL went sterile and died.
But this is not true.
This is a complete 180 to evolution, which suggests that over time, mutations that offer any sort of advantage, increase in numbers.
In the genetic experiments on fruit flies, the numbers of each new strain where entirely at the whim of the experimenters. Also, they were not selecting for mutations which conferred an advantage, but for any mutation which was visible. And they still did not all go sterile and die, you made that up.
X rays have been used to increase the mutation rate in the fruit fly by 15,000 percent. All in all, scientists have been able to "catalyze the fruit fly evolutionary process, such that what has been seen to occur in Drosophila is the equivalent of the many millions of years of normal mutations and evolution.
But this is not what has been seen in Drosophilia. It's not what's been done in Drosophilia.
Your claim of 400 mutations makes it plain. If you take the natural mutation in primates and do the math, you find that since the divergence of humans and chimps (for example) there must have been about 35 million mutations fixed in the two gene pools: which agrees with observation of the genomes.
Rifkin has simply misunderstood the fly experiments. This is not surprising, he's made a career out of misunderstanding things. In the words of Stewart Brand: "Among scientists who have read his work, Rifkin is regarded as America's leading nitwit."
I've come across him before, he used to write for the Guardian. Once in an article he explained that people who produce raw materials must always be poorer than people who produce finished products, because finished products cost more. I wrote him an email, but I don't think he understood it.
I've heard mention of the E-coli evolution miracle. Since all that happened was a group of e-coli lost control of the switch that allows them to metabolize citrate in low or no oxygen environments
But this cannot be true. Breaking a control gene would only take a single point mutation, and in that case all Lenski's populations would have gained the ability to metabolize citrate by now.
it's fair to claim that whether information was gained or lost genetically is irrelevant (even though it was not gained), the one mutation that occurred at 20,000 and 32,000 generations does not give enough time for evolution.
That would be two mutations, that's why they happened at different times.
Over "10 trillion E-coli have been produced over the 22 year old experiment", equalling 1 million years of human life, and ONE genetic mutation has occurred.
But this is not true. That's just all you've heard about. In fact, lots of mutations have occurred in Lenski's experiments, many of which are demonstrably beneficial. The citrate adaptation has received an especial amount of publicity because it is claimed to be experimental evidence of the role of contingency in evolution, making it the "ONE" that you've heard of.
As for human mutation, as I say, we can measure the mutation rate. The average person has about a hundred mutations not acquired from their parents. And this is demonstrably enough to account for our divergence from chimps in the time available --- I can show you the math if you like.
It is a striking, but not much mentioned fact that, though geneticists have been breeding fruit flies for sixty years or more in labs all round the worldflies which produce a new generation every eleven daysthey have never yet seen the emergence of a new species or even a new enzyme.
It is indeed strikingly in line with the predictions of evolution that a lineage will not produce a new species every sixty years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by dennis780, posted 08-21-2010 4:56 PM dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by dennis780, posted 08-21-2010 8:11 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 156 by Nij, posted 08-22-2010 2:52 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 145 of 752 (575927)
08-21-2010 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by dennis780
08-21-2010 5:22 PM


Information NEEDS TO HAVE BEEN ADDED, by any possible process ...
Mutation.
Any questions?
This depends on what you are asking.
Details of the way you'd like to measure the information in DNA.
That is, we want an algorithm where you put in a string of As, Gs, Cs, and Ts and get out a number which is the measure of the amount of information in the string.
I would also suggest that your measure should have the following two common-sense properties:
* The "null string" consisting of no letters at all ( which mathematicians denote by λ ) should have an information content of 0.
* Two absolutely identical strings should have the same information content.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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