Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,803 Year: 4,060/9,624 Month: 931/974 Week: 258/286 Day: 19/46 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Problems with evolution? Submit your questions.
havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 612 of 752 (607006)
03-01-2011 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 607 by Taq
03-01-2011 11:52 AM


Re: Cows
What limitations?
New functionality. Lets take the dino to bird example. You would have to have mutations that increased the information in the genome and tell the dino how to change from making scales to making feathers, body plan, bone structure, lung design. This doesnt occur and without the preconcived notion that it must have occured there is no evidence for it. I mean the fossile evidence interpetation is more art than science.
Mutations do not add new functional info. It would take millions of these fictional mutations to turn a "simple cell" into a human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 11:52 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 12:32 PM havoc has replied
 Message 619 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-01-2011 12:35 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 621 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2011 12:46 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 634 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 4:28 PM havoc has replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 615 of 752 (607009)
03-01-2011 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 607 by Taq
03-01-2011 11:52 AM


Re: Cows
Is there a base in any genome that can not be mutated?
Agreed mutations can and do occure. However you can shake up the scrabble board as often as you like and you will never get a Shakespeare.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 11:52 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 617 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 12:34 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 618 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-01-2011 12:34 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 633 by frako, posted 03-01-2011 4:03 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 635 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 4:36 PM havoc has replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 620 of 752 (607015)
03-01-2011 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 616 by Taq
03-01-2011 12:32 PM


Re: Cows
So the millions of mutations that separate humans and chimps are not responsible for the differences between humans and chimps? Really?
nice to here a evolutionist admit the vast difference in the genetic code between the chimps and us chumps.
mutations lead to loss of function. wingless beatles etc. they can be advantagious but are inverably in the opposite direction of your theory.
Try your examle from before in reverse. Take two poodles add and a bunch of genereations and I'll even through in an intellegence in the breader and see if you can ever get back to the wolf.
once the genetic information is lost it is gone chance and time will never bring it back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 12:32 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-01-2011 12:51 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 623 by jar, posted 03-01-2011 12:51 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 624 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2011 12:52 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 627 by Coyote, posted 03-01-2011 1:06 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 630 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 1:36 PM havoc has not replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 625 of 752 (607020)
03-01-2011 12:53 PM


Nice chat
Nice chatting with u all. Got to run back to real life. maple trees to tap. I got to hurry though before they change into pines just wouldnt taste the same.

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-01-2011 1:04 PM havoc has replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 628 of 752 (607023)
03-01-2011 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 626 by New Cat's Eye
03-01-2011 1:04 PM


Re: Nice chat
What, I thought this was an open site for debate. what makes me a troll. I think the evidence points to design you do not. I enjoy this type of debate that is why I am here. challenging myself to look up new information and see how it fits my beliefs.
name calling shows your true collors my friend. Alot of scared people on this site. to bad have your debates amongst yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-01-2011 1:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by Admin, posted 03-01-2011 1:32 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 631 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 1:41 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 632 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-01-2011 2:54 PM havoc has not replied
 Message 636 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 4:59 PM havoc has not replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 640 of 752 (607126)
03-02-2011 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 638 by RAZD
03-01-2011 10:59 PM


Re: my karma ran over your dogma
How come there are no animals with entirely different DNA? That would falsify common descent. The reason you don't is because of the vast evidence for common descent, not because it can't be falsified.
I admit that certain evidence is consistant with common ancestor, such as DNA. This however is also consistant with a common designer.
Curiously I think if we did find some organism that used a different system than dna I don’t think you all would abandon your Darwinist ideas. Once again it is not falsifiable because it is dogma not science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 10:59 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 642 by jar, posted 03-02-2011 9:00 AM havoc has replied
 Message 668 by RAZD, posted 03-02-2011 11:44 AM havoc has replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 641 of 752 (607128)
03-02-2011 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 639 by Percy
03-02-2011 6:09 AM


Re: Cows
Haldane said this, but I have no idea why, and certainly this never became an accepted tenet of the theory of evolution. After all, there's nothing in evolutionary theory precluding life from employing anything that provides a survival advantage, so while I think we would all agree that finding motors or magnets in life would be highly unexpected, unless it's impossible it would probably be prudent to agree with that famous polymath Ian Malcom when he said, "Life will find a way."
So once again it was "highly unexpectd" but since it happened we just chalked it up to well now we know that evo can do this "life will find a way"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by Percy, posted 03-02-2011 6:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by Percy, posted 03-02-2011 10:16 AM havoc has not replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 643 of 752 (607131)
03-02-2011 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by RAZD
03-01-2011 4:28 PM


Re: birds from feathered dinosaurs
Fascinating how different scientists reach the same conclusions then, over and over, isn't it?
As if all scientists agree with Darwinian evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 4:28 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 644 of 752 (607133)
03-02-2011 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 638 by RAZD
03-01-2011 10:59 PM


Re: my karma ran over your dogma
And yet you don't really have motors and magnets, you have biological systems that are (badly) analogous to motors and magnets. Because they are biological systems they are necessarily available for evolutionary processes to tinker with them and assemble them. Biological systems are explainable by biological processes.
ATP Synthase and the Bacterial flagellum are indeed motors. Unless your definition requires a man to make it in order for it to be a motor.
The only reason they are badly analogous is because they are far superior to anything modern science and engineering could create.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 10:59 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by RAZD, posted 03-02-2011 7:15 PM havoc has replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 645 of 752 (607135)
03-02-2011 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 635 by RAZD
03-01-2011 4:36 PM


Re: DNA, mutation AND selection
It is a common mistake of creationists and people ignorant of how evolution works to miss the linkage between mutation and selection: both are necessary for evolution, and the process is incomplete without both parts.
Take any phrase you care from Shakespeare and then throw a pile of scrabble pieces, select the ones that fit the pattern you have chosen (selection for the ecological opportunities) then throw the remaining and repeat (generation after generation) and you can piece together any phrase you care.
So if you know the end game the phrase that you want you can get there. However this is not how selection works. Only traits that give that generation a breeding advantage will be selected. This does not explain how sight or flight or micro motors or proteins can come into existence the first time.
You’re not saying that evolution new that it wanted to create the compound eye before there was such a thing?
Every famous mutation such as herbicide and antibiotic resistance once examined at the molecular level has been shown to involve information loss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 4:36 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by Huntard, posted 03-02-2011 9:39 AM havoc has replied
 Message 666 by Taq, posted 03-02-2011 11:16 AM havoc has not replied
 Message 699 by RAZD, posted 03-02-2011 7:21 PM havoc has replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 646 of 752 (607136)
03-02-2011 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 642 by jar
03-02-2011 9:00 AM


Re: my karma ran over your dogma
Of course there is evidence that ancestors exist but no evidence that the designer does.
There is plenty of evidence consistent with a designer. Much we would agree upon, Homology, DNA etc. It’s really more a world view question than evidence based; I mean we all look at the same fossils and draw different inferences.
From my personal point of view design is self evident. There cannot be a code without a code maker. Creation is evidence of a creator. You find an arrow head in the desert you know it had a maker even if you know nothing else of the maker.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 642 by jar, posted 03-02-2011 9:00 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 648 by jar, posted 03-02-2011 9:41 AM havoc has not replied
 Message 649 by Huntard, posted 03-02-2011 9:46 AM havoc has not replied
 Message 650 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-02-2011 9:52 AM havoc has replied
 Message 663 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-02-2011 10:37 AM havoc has not replied
 Message 665 by Taq, posted 03-02-2011 11:13 AM havoc has not replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 651 of 752 (607143)
03-02-2011 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 647 by Huntard
03-02-2011 9:39 AM


Re: DNA, mutation AND selection
Could you show some evidence for this? Or are you just going to assert that this was so?
Antibiotic Phenotype Providing Resistance
Actinonin Loss of enzyme activity
Ampicillin SOS response halting cell division
Azithromycin Loss of a regulatory protein
Chloramphenicol Reduced formation of a porin or a regulatory protein
Ciprofloxacin Loss of a porin or loss of a regulatory protein
Erythromycin Reduced affinity to 23S rRNA or loss of a regulatory protein
Fluoroquinolones Loss of affinity to gyrase
Imioenem Reduced formation of a porin
Kanamycin Reduced formation of a transport protein
Nalidixic Acid Loss or inactivation of a regulatory protein
Rifampin Loss of affinity to RNA polymerase
Streptomycin Reduced affinity to 16S rRNA or reduction of transport activity
Tetracycline Reduced formation of a porin or a regulatory protein
Zittermicin A Loss of proton motive force
Not sure how to add tables here.
Edited by havoc, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by Huntard, posted 03-02-2011 9:39 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by Huntard, posted 03-02-2011 10:05 AM havoc has replied
 Message 664 by Wounded King, posted 03-02-2011 10:59 AM havoc has not replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 653 of 752 (607147)
03-02-2011 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 650 by New Cat's Eye
03-02-2011 9:52 AM


Re: my karma ran over your dogma
I showed you an example of information gain in my Message 622.
No you did not. This study as it is laid out by you shows a previously winged insect losing that info and regaining it. This is possible and not evolution.
You need to show novel info being created.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-02-2011 9:52 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by Huntard, posted 03-02-2011 10:14 AM havoc has replied
 Message 660 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-02-2011 10:30 AM havoc has not replied
 Message 669 by RAZD, posted 03-02-2011 12:25 PM havoc has not replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 655 of 752 (607152)
03-02-2011 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 652 by Huntard
03-02-2011 10:05 AM


Re: DNA, mutation AND selection
If you hang your hat on Shannon theory of info you are deluding yourself. Its not the number of letters present it’s the order. Its specified complexity. If a cell once had the ability to regulate say the production of a certain protein and now it doesn’t this is loss of information, Even if the mutation added to the total bits available.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by Huntard, posted 03-02-2011 10:05 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 658 by Huntard, posted 03-02-2011 10:22 AM havoc has not replied
 Message 661 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-02-2011 10:34 AM havoc has not replied
 Message 667 by Taq, posted 03-02-2011 11:18 AM havoc has replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 657 of 752 (607155)
03-02-2011 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 654 by Huntard
03-02-2011 10:14 AM


Re: my karma ran over your dogma
Exactly. It had the information, lost it, and new information (it didn't have it anymore, afterall) was added, making the wings reappear.
Blind cave fish can regain sight, I think there must still be the information in the genome that can sometimes be manifest. The information already exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Huntard, posted 03-02-2011 10:14 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by Huntard, posted 03-02-2011 10:29 AM havoc has not replied
 Message 662 by Wounded King, posted 03-02-2011 10:37 AM havoc has not replied
 Message 684 by Theodoric, posted 03-02-2011 4:24 PM havoc has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024