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Author Topic:   Problems with evolution? Submit your questions.
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 46 of 752 (566206)
06-23-2010 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Coragyps
06-23-2010 2:57 PM


Re: Question
Hi Coragyps,
Coragyps writes:
From mutations in the DNA of earlier generations of organisms, ICANT.
So where did the information come from that caused the mutation?
I can understand how the reduction of information could happen.
But not how it could increase as new information would need to be coded. There is no known natural process for this to happen.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Coragyps, posted 06-23-2010 2:57 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Coragyps, posted 06-23-2010 3:18 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 55 by bluegenes, posted 06-23-2010 3:50 PM ICANT has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 47 of 752 (566209)
06-23-2010 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ICANT
06-23-2010 3:06 PM


Re: Question
There is no known natural process for this to happen.
Oh, but there is. Mutation and natural selection is one such natural process.

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:06 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:40 PM Coragyps has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 752 (566211)
06-23-2010 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
06-23-2010 2:59 PM


Re: information origins.
Modulous writes:
The answer therefore is: From the laws of physics. How did it get into the genome? Work was done. Where did the information from the laws of physics come from? Not a question for evolution.
Satisfied?
No.
Because there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
The process explained by the Theory of Evolution does.
That is: Random Mutation + Natural Selection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 2:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 49 of 752 (566214)
06-23-2010 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Dr Jack
06-23-2010 1:03 PM


Re: Question
Hi Mr Jack,
Mr Jack writes:
2. It's not obvious how it applies to evolution. What is the sender? What is the receiver? What is the message?
What difference does it make what is the sender?
What difference does it make what is the receiver?
What difference does it make what the message is?
A processor can process information that is input into it.
The processor can then display this information on a screen.
The processor can also store the information on a hard drive.
Information as we know it comes from a mind.
But where did the information come from that is stored in the DNA?
Is there an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally?
Remember I have no idea what I am talking about. I am just asking questions trying to find information.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Dr Jack, posted 06-23-2010 1:03 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dr Jack, posted 06-24-2010 6:43 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 50 of 752 (566216)
06-23-2010 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by New Cat's Eye
06-23-2010 3:25 PM


Re: information origins.
Hi CS,
CS writes:
The process explained by the Theory of Evolution does.
That is: Random Mutation + Natural Selection.
No that tells you what happened.
It does not tell you were the new information came from.
I think I need to wait until the fellow that promised all the answers to every question to come back and answer my question.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2010 3:25 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by kjsimons, posted 06-23-2010 3:41 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 53 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2010 3:46 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 51 of 752 (566218)
06-23-2010 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Coragyps
06-23-2010 3:18 PM


Re: Question
Hi Coragyps,
Coragyps writes:
Oh, but there is. Mutation and natural selection is one such natural process.
How does the mutation or natural selection produce new information?
Do you have an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Coragyps, posted 06-23-2010 3:18 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Coragyps, posted 06-23-2010 3:47 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 56 by bluegenes, posted 06-23-2010 4:00 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 57 by Taq, posted 06-23-2010 4:49 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 61 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-23-2010 10:56 PM ICANT has not replied

kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


(1)
Message 52 of 752 (566220)
06-23-2010 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICANT
06-23-2010 3:36 PM


Re: information origins.
Icant,
Mutations provide the new 'information' that you are asking about. Natural selection 'decides' which mutations get to hang around. I personally think that referring to dna as information just clouds the issue and should be avoided.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:36 PM ICANT has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 752 (566223)
06-23-2010 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICANT
06-23-2010 3:36 PM


Re: information origins.
CS writes:
The process explained by the Theory of Evolution does.
That is: Random Mutation + Natural Selection.
No that tells you what happened.
It does not tell you were the new information came from.
The new information comes from the random mutations and the natural selection determines if it sticks around or not.
Evolution does require some starting info though...
Where that came from you can learn about by studying abiogenesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:36 PM ICANT has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 54 of 752 (566225)
06-23-2010 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
06-23-2010 3:40 PM


Re: Question
Do you have an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally?
Yup. The DNA in the nuclei of the cells (excluding red blood cells) in my body. You have a couple of trillion examples of your own.
AbE: any comments on stellar spectra?
Edited by Coragyps, : No reason given.

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:40 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 11:30 PM Coragyps has not replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 55 of 752 (566227)
06-23-2010 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ICANT
06-23-2010 3:06 PM


Re: Question
ICANT writes:
So where did the information come from that caused the mutation?
If the source of information is external to the organism, radiation, viruses and mutagenic chemicals are the most common.
I can understand how the reduction of information could happen.
But not how it could increase as new information would need to be coded. There is no known natural process for this to happen.
What's unnatural about the things I mentioned? What's unnatural about chemistry?
The mutations are changes in information, and therefore, by definition, new information. There can be environmental input in their cause, as I explained above.
However, the really important input of information from the environment is in the selection process. It is this that causes a mutation that happens to improve function to go to fixation across a population.
So, what's necessary to add "coded information", as you describe it, is an information rich environment.
A planet with a wide range of ever changing environments will input a great deal of information into varying chemical self-replicators.
We live on such a planet. Information is all around us, ready to be absorbed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:06 PM ICANT has not replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 56 of 752 (566231)
06-23-2010 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
06-23-2010 3:40 PM


Re: Question
ICANT writes:
Do you have an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally?
Anything you observe that you care to describe as a code or language occurs naturally, so far as our observations can tell us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:40 PM ICANT has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 57 of 752 (566242)
06-23-2010 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
06-23-2010 3:40 PM


Re: Question
How does the mutation or natural selection produce new information?
Would you agree that the human genome and the chimp genome contain different information? Is this difference in information due to the difference in DNA sequence? If you answered yes to both then you must also agree that a change in DNA sequence due to a mutation is new information. If you answered no to either question then please explain.
Do you have an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally?
The orbitals of atoms is a good example. Hydrogen, the simplest element, has the code 1s^1. Helium is 1s^2. Read more here. Everything made up of atoms or particles has a code.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:40 PM ICANT has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 58 of 752 (566244)
06-23-2010 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
06-23-2010 2:59 PM


Re: information origins.
Because there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
You asked where it came from, not for details of the process that lead to it getting there. You should be more specific. Anyway, the answer to the question:
by what process did information in the environment come to be represented in a nucelic acid?
Would be "I don't know, I wasn't there. There are some interesting ideas hypothesized by scientists that can achieve this goal, and some testing has occurred and some ideas remain unfalsified. Maybe it's one of them, or something like them. In general terms, and as I pointed out in Message 41: Work was done to achieve this end."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 2:59 PM ICANT has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 59 of 752 (566255)
06-23-2010 5:54 PM


Moving This Thread to Free For All
Hi everyone!
This thread was going along okay enough when it was just people being wiseasses (myself included) while waiting for SwampDonkey to reappear, but it doesn't look like he's coming back. I never held out much hope for this thread anyway, and given that ICANT is once again being his inimitable self, I'm going to move this to Free For All.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Admin
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Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
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Message 60 of 752 (566257)
06-23-2010 5:54 PM


Thread Copied from Links and Information Forum
Thread copied here from the Problems with evolution? Submit your questions. thread in the Links and Information forum.

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