Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8965 total)
57 online now:
Coragyps, Diomedes, DrJones*, GDR, kjsimons, Tangle (6 members, 51 visitors)
Newest Member: javier martinez
Post Volume: Total: 873,122 Year: 4,870/23,288 Month: 1,775/1,286 Week: 89/353 Day: 16/20 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Where are all the gods?
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 91 of 122 (573643)
08-12-2010 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by riVeRraT
08-12-2010 8:06 AM


Are you implying that every time someone kills someone else, it is a screw up?

No only when he thinks he is going the killing for his skydaddy.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by riVeRraT, posted 08-12-2010 8:06 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by riVeRraT, posted 08-17-2010 8:17 AM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 92 of 122 (573683)
08-12-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by riVeRraT
08-12-2010 7:57 AM


riVeRraT writes:

Because His ways are not our ways.


Maybe He needs to step up His game.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by riVeRraT, posted 08-12-2010 7:57 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by riVeRraT, posted 08-17-2010 8:18 AM ringo has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 93 of 122 (574669)
08-17-2010 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by bluescat48
08-12-2010 8:56 AM


"bluescat48" writes:

No only when he thinks he is going the killing for his skydaddy.

Well I am pretty sure that was not the case. Just as it is not the case today.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by bluescat48, posted 08-12-2010 8:56 AM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 94 of 122 (574670)
08-17-2010 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
08-12-2010 12:47 PM


"ringo" writes:

Maybe He needs to step up His game.

said the child to his father


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 08-12-2010 12:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 08-17-2010 11:27 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
Dogmafood
Member
Posts: 1812
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 95 of 122 (574684)
08-17-2010 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by riVeRraT
08-12-2010 7:57 AM


Tell me, does a child understand when he is being punished? Or is he just upset cause he got a time-out?

My children understand when they are being punished. I make sure that they understand. The whole point of the punishment is to help them understand not to make them suffer.

If my child does something that is wrong but does not know that it is wrong the last thing I would do is punish them. I would make every effort to clearly explain in language that they do understand.

Eventually, my children will grow up and they will understand my ways. When do we get to grow up in God's eye? After we die? And then we are tried as an adult for things we did as a child?

If God is my father why does he not speak english?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by riVeRraT, posted 08-12-2010 7:57 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2010 8:18 PM Dogmafood has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 96 of 122 (574707)
08-17-2010 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by riVeRraT
08-17-2010 8:18 AM


riVeRraT writes:

ringo writes:

Maybe He needs to step up His game.


said the child to his father

Remember, we're talking about a missing father here, a deadbeat dad. The first thing he needs to do to step up his game is to show up at the court.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by riVeRraT, posted 08-17-2010 8:18 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 97 of 122 (580358)
09-08-2010 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Dogmafood
08-17-2010 9:30 AM


"dpgmafood" writes:

My children understand when they are being punished. I make sure that they understand. The whole point of the punishment is to help them understand not to make them suffer.

If my child does something that is wrong but does not know that it is wrong the last thing I would do is punish them. I would make every effort to clearly explain in language that they do understand.

Eventually, my children will grow up and they will understand my ways. When do we get to grow up in God's eye? After we die? And then we are tried as an adult for things we did as a child?

If God is my father why does he not speak english?

That's great, I do the same thing, or try to. You see sometimes no matter how much you try to explain something to someone (children especially) they won't get it until they make that mistake themselves, and be angry about being punished for doing "wrong".

We grow up in God's eyes constantly. I learn something with each passing day, as God reveals the things I mess up at, and the things I have wrong. He shows me the depth of His love. I tend to think that He is only showing as much as I can handle at the moment, and I am content with that.

I suppose we learn a lot more after we die, when (and if) we meet God. I hope, and believe we a tried rationally. I believe in accountability. Just like you wouldn't punish your kid for spilling milk, because he didn't know any better, then so shall God do with us. It's all relevant. If God is just, then that is what I am expecting. Not the dogma you hear from the pulpit.

I screwd up many times in my life. I never felt like I was going to hell, not then, and not now. Or do I feel or think anyone is really going to hell, unless they have truly made the decision in their hearts to be evil, knowing the difference. Surely there might be people like that in the world.

Edited by riVeRraT, : fix quotes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Dogmafood, posted 08-17-2010 9:30 AM Dogmafood has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by menes777, posted 10-01-2010 3:05 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
menes777
Member (Idle past 2770 days)
Posts: 36
From: Wichita, KS, USA
Joined: 01-25-2010


Message 98 of 122 (584386)
10-01-2010 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by riVeRraT
09-08-2010 8:18 PM


The best jail in the world
I have always wondered why hell is necessary? If a person is truly evil in their hearts and will always do evil even in paradise, how hard would it be for god to create a prison specifically for that person? I am thinking if he is god than he could do it in the blink of an eye. Maybe even something matrix like where only that person is real and everything else is fake. Like if that person just murdered the hell out of everyone around him they wouldn't be killing people, just destroying, raping, torturing fakes. Maybe put these evil people on an eternal planet with plenty of food and water, but nothing else?

To me hell is an invention as a sense of justice for those who think they are doing right. It's way to rationalize why good things happen to bad people, because in the end they end up suffering forever. It's way to balance an unfair world where certain people get away with murder and rape (among many other things).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2010 8:18 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 3156 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 99 of 122 (584389)
10-01-2010 3:17 PM


Parents As An Analogy
Well, here's the thing about the religion I find funny. Among many other things, but this is one of the big ones for me.

Any child will often grow up and grow away from their parents. A true mature parent would allow their children to grow up and find their own way.

The Christian God and other gods doesn't do this. They want their children to follow their every word to the letter of the law.

If they were truly mature, wouldn't these Gods allow their children to grow and find their own way without them, but still keep a positive relationship with their children?


  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 100 of 122 (873447)
03-15-2020 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by dwise1
06-28-2010 11:04 PM


tangle,from another thread writes:

The fantasy option is that there's some skydaddy going to help out with stuff here.

(Especially as if there is a skydaddy, he put the bloody disease here to start with).

The whole premise of Jesus Christ is that there *is* a "skydaddy" Who sent His Son to help out here. How He helps is a seperate discussion. And why on earth should God shield us from every challenge that the universe throws our way? We would become fat, undeveloped blobs of simplicity were he to do that. Yet you cling to this notion that any god worth considering must have evidence to support their existance. It may just not be that way.

Perusing this old topic...

Hyro writes:

Well, in all fairness, my idea of a God wouldn't include a petty, human emotion like vanity. This is precisely why I object to the bible's version of jealous God who wants to hog all the glory. That seems so out of place with a perfect God who is complete within itself.

God is described as jealous for several reasons.

quote:
There are many passages in the Bible that seem to say that God is jealous. God even calls himself a jealous God and says that his name is ‘Jealous’. Yet, the idea that God is jealous does not sit easily with religious believers. If God exists and is a perfect being, then why would an
almighty, holy, and perfectly good God be jealous of finite and mortal creatures?1 Also, according to monotheism, the polytheistic gods humans venerate do not really exist. But then how could God be jealous of them?

And most importantly, would it not be morally wrong for God to be jealous? After all, we usually find jealousy a repulsive character trait: it seems possessive and demanding.



2 Cor 11:2 writes:

I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so
that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by dwise1, posted 06-28-2010 11:04 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 03-15-2020 5:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-15-2020 6:41 PM Phat has responded
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 03-16-2020 11:58 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7440
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 101 of 122 (873449)
03-15-2020 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
03-15-2020 4:56 PM


Phat writes:

The whole premise of Jesus Christ is that there *is* a "skydaddy" Who sent His Son to help out here.

Sure I know the story. It's a story intended to explain away our rubbish situation here and make amends by promising a fantasy life thereafter.

And why on earth should God shield us from every challenge that the universe throws our way?

Why would this god throw these 'challenges” our way?

We would become fat, undeveloped blobs of simplicity were he to do that.

Given that this current 'challenge' is about to kill about 1% of the global population, getting fat seems a slightly smaller problem.

Yet you cling to this notion that any god worth considering must have evidence to support their existance.

I do not. I just require evidence in order to believe.

It may just not be that way.

It isn't that way.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 03-15-2020 4:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5982
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 102 of 122 (873455)
03-15-2020 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
03-15-2020 4:56 PM


And why on earth should God shield us from every challenge that the universe throws our way?

And why on earth would a God who, according to the bible, only wants humans to love him create billions of creatures he seems to care little about or why he creates deadly viruses that kill out the very people he loves so damn much? Why create an infinite universe that is functionally useless if Earth and heaven were the only things of importance?

If you're going to ask a rhetorical question that no has an answer to then another of the inverse should be questioned as well.

quote:
Well, in all fairness, my idea of a God wouldn't include a petty, human emotion like vanity. This is precisely why I object to the bible's version of jealous God who wants to hog all the glory. That seems so out of place with a perfect God who is complete within itself.

God is described as jealous for several reasons.

There are many passages in the Bible that seem to say that God is jealous. God even calls himself a jealous God and says that his name is ‘Jealous’. Yet, the idea that God is jealous does not sit easily with religious believers. If God exists and is a perfect being, then why would an almighty, holy, and perfectly good God be jealous of finite and mortal creatures?1 Also, according to monotheism, the polytheistic gods humans venerate do not really exist. But then how could God be jealous of them? And most importantly, would it not be morally wrong for God to be jealous? After all, we usually find jealousy a repulsive character trait: it seems possessive and demanding.

Jealously is almost universally perceived in a negative connotation... that it speaks of a fundamental insecurity. It seems out of touch with a "perfect being." If he doesn't need anyone or anything then why set out to create humanity at all? Its obviously a distortion of the character of God imparted by HUMANS who assumed it.

What makes more sense? That God spoke only through Jews a few thousand years ago and then stopped speaking altogether or that the Jews in the 1st and 2nd century BCE spoke for God and as God through the lens of their Jewish experiences? What great wisdoms did we glean from Habukkuk that pertain to the modern day Jews, never mind the rest of the non-Jewish world especially when considering the overwhelming majority of humans on Earth are gentiles? We're talking a ratio of 5.8 billion to 1.

Ever notice how stylistically different the texts are from author to author, yet supposedly it was God writing through their hands?

At what point might you entertain the notion that this is bullshit? And not to say that God per se is bullshit, but that your conception of God revealed through the bible is bullshit? If you're able to conceptually grapple with that notion when it comes to the Qur'an and the Book of Mormon, both of which make the exact same claim of divine inspiration, at what point do you at least consider that perhaps your own biases are on display?

Zoroastrianism was a very dominant religion for a very long time.... how many practitioners are there today?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 03-15-2020 4:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 03-16-2020 3:26 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 103 of 122 (873501)
03-16-2020 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
03-15-2020 4:56 PM


Phat writes:

Yet you cling to this notion that any god worth considering must have evidence to support their existance.


You're being dishonest.

You cling to the notion that evidence is important in every situation that really matters. You look at the evidence before you drive through an intersection or step off a curb.

The only reason you don't insist on evidence for God is because it doesn't matter whether God exists or not.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 03-15-2020 4:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 03-16-2020 3:04 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 104 of 122 (873527)
03-16-2020 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
03-16-2020 11:58 AM


Gods Existence Is Crucial To My State Of Mind
ringo writes:

You cling to the notion that evidence is important in every situation that really matters. You look at the evidence before you drive through an intersection or step off a curb.

I wouldn't say that! Evidence is useful in any situation where it can be applied. I've seen the result of car wrecks. When we were teenagers, we would experiment with drugs. If someone we knew gave us a pill and told us we would "trip", we trusted them and usually had a mind-opening experience. Sometimes, however, we "saw demons" and did not know our names. There was no evidence except the word of mouth subjectivity yet we felt young and immortal. We survived.

The only reason you don't insist on evidence for God is because it doesn't matter whether God exists or not.
You claim that it does not matter whether or not God is real but I strongly disagree. I am no longer young and immortal. I respect the fact that you who are older than I would give away your spare change and never worry about keeping your house when you yourself see no evidence of a God to rescue you should you become homeless. People matter to you, but God doesn't. I am not like that. People matter to me yet cannot be counted on to take care of me. God is my only ultimate hope.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 03-16-2020 11:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 03-17-2020 8:02 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 105 of 122 (873530)
03-16-2020 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Hyroglyphx
03-15-2020 6:41 PM


Hyro writes:

And why on earth would a God who, according to the bible, only wants humans to love him create billions of creatures he seems to care little about or why he creates deadly viruses that kill out the very people he loves so damn much? Why create an infinite universe that is functionally useless if Earth and heaven were the only things of importance?

Good questions. It's like I said to Tangle though. Everyone seems to behoove the idea of god allowing harmful things to exist, but I've never seen a problem with it. Do we really expect Him to catch us every time we stumble and fall as a baby? To magically put protective pillows around our tiny knees and faces? How then would we develop the character traits to survive? Obviously we do need to get tougher. Tangle replies that its almost exactly how life would evolve if god never existed, which is true. What is interesting to me, howver, is how humans ( the ones without dogmatic beliefs) indict and challenge this God character to either to live up to *our standards* or that they don't need Him. I've never figured out how the unbelievers will call Him a bloody bastard or a tyrant as if they have some better idea of how such a Deity *should* behave! But that's an argument we will never have any conclusions on.

Hyro writes:

Jealously is almost universally perceived in a negative connotation... that it speaks of a fundamental insecurity. It seems out of touch with a "perfect being." If he doesn't need anyone or anything then why set out to create humanity at all? It's obviously a distortion of the character of God imparted by HUMANS who assumed it.

To me, God is described as jealous implied that He so loved His people that He defended the very contract between them and Him to the letter, getting mad at them for not taking it seriously and assuming that He foreknew the outcome of their rebellions.

Hyro writes:

What makes more sense? That God spoke only through Jews a few thousand years ago and then stopped speaking altogether or that the Jews in the 1st and 2nd century BCE spoke for God and as God through the lens of their Jewish experiences?

You've got me here! It makes much more sense that it was the early authors who spoke for God through their own lives and experience. In many ways, God's written relationship with humans was a reconciliation of males with the tenderness of masculinity that they never received from their busy Fathers. God was masculine yet was tender and understanding at times and tough and callous at other times...as they themselves needed to be in their warring culture.

I'll give you all that God, as described by humans, is a human construct, but it does not prevent me from believing that He exists above, beyond, and apart from our attempts to describe Him.

Hyro writes:

At what point might you entertain the notion that this is bullshit? And not to say that God per se is bullshit, but that your conception of God revealed through the bible is bullshit?

I will agree that it is BS but that it is *evolving* BS. If God exists (which I believe He does) and wants us to know Him and know ourselves in the process, He obviously won't give us any clearer directions apart from what we ourselves conclude from our own experiences.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-15-2020 6:41 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 03-16-2020 4:31 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 108 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-16-2020 5:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020