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Author Topic:   Where are all the gods?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7440
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 106 of 122 (873534)
03-16-2020 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
03-16-2020 3:26 PM


Phat writes:

Everyone seems to behoove the idea of god allowing harmful things to exist, but I've never seen a problem with it. Do we really expect Him to catch us every time we stumble and fall as a baby? To magically put protective pillows around our tiny knees and faces? How then would we develop the character traits to survive? Obviously we do need to get tougher.

I don't believe you. You must have thought more about it than this - we've been pushing this stuff in your face for years.

I've never figured out how the unbelievers will call Him a bloody bastard or a tyrant as if they have some better idea of how such a Deity *should* behave! But that's an argument we will never have any conclusions on.

It's certainly an argument that you will fail to understand because, I suspect, you just don't like it. To the rest of us it's blindingly bloody obvious.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 03-16-2020 3:26 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32356
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 107 of 122 (873536)
03-16-2020 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tangle
03-16-2020 4:31 PM


Tangle writes:

It's certainly an argument that you will fail to understand because, I suspect, you just don't like it. To the rest of us it's blindingly bloody obvious.

It was blindingly bloody obvious to the author of Genesis 18 too as has been pointed out repeatedly to Phat.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5982
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 108 of 122 (873537)
03-16-2020 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
03-16-2020 3:26 PM


Everyone seems to behoove the idea of god allowing harmful things to exist, but I've never seen a problem with it. Do we really expect Him to catch us every time we stumble and fall as a baby? To magically put protective pillows around our tiny knees and faces? How then would we develop the character traits to survive?Obviously we do need to get tougher.

I'm not talking about a little boo-boo ouchy-ouch, Phat... I'm talking about life spent in protracted misery for some people. I'm talking about why viruses exist, why communicable illnesses exist, and why there congenital defects like Harlequin's disease. What grand mystery are we unlocking about the infinite love of God through such things?

The specter of human suffering was explored in the Book of Job where God afflicted Job and subjected his family to a series of death and misery just to prove to Satan that Job wouldn't curse God. So, a glorified pissing contest at the expense of innocent people just to prove something to Satan which, by the way, was also an unnecessary addition to humanity. O' His mercies are enduring!!!!

Tangle replies that its almost exactly how life would evolve if god never existed, which is true. What is interesting to me, howver, is how humans ( the ones without dogmatic beliefs) indict and challenge this God character to either to live up to *our standards* or that they don't need Him.

The irony that I speak of is that you are quite possibly following the human standards of a 2nd Century Jew concerning what he believed God ought to be. That's what I'm talking about.

I've never figured out how the unbelievers will call Him a bloody bastard or a tyrant as if they have some better idea of how such a Deity *should* behave!

Really, you can't figure that out, Phat??? You can't fathom why a supposedly perfect and benevolent God who has zero interaction with the people he loves so much, save a random collection of books that was conveniently written 2-3,000 years ago, not before, not after? You can't think of a better conception of God than the one of the bible? Perhaps a more equitable God? A more charitable God? A less war-like God? A God more devoted to love and compassion?

To me, God is described as jealous implied that He so loved His people that He defended the very contract between them and Him to the letter, getting mad at them for not taking it seriously and assuming that He foreknew the outcome of their rebellions.

And to me it sounds like a psycho ex-girlfriend who is so emotionally petulant that she's willing to inflict pain and suffering on to you out of spite... If I can't have you, no one can. That's not about love that's about self-loathing projected outwards and about power, control, and manipulation.

You've got me here! It makes much more sense that it was the early authors who spoke for God through their own lives and experience. In many ways, God's written relationship with humans was a reconciliation of males with the tenderness of masculinity that they never received from their busy Fathers. God was masculine yet was tender and understanding at times and tough and callous at other times...as they themselves needed to be in their warring culture.
I'll give you all that God, as described by humans, is a human construct, but it does not prevent me from believing that He exists above, beyond, and apart from our attempts to describe Him.

And I'm not suggesting that a God of sorts is impossible, I'm challenging you question whether maybe the bible's conception of what God is is a distortion through the lens of a very specific culture at a very specific time in a very specific part of the world. What great epiphany is there to be understand concerning the wars between the Edomites and the Israelites are we supposed to take onboard with such conviction that we cast aside common sense and good judgment to follow it?

I will agree that it is BS but that it is *evolving* BS. If God exists (which I believe He does) and wants us to know Him and know ourselves in the process, He obviously won't give us any clearer directions apart from what we ourselves conclude from our own experiences.

Well, that's great when you're in a concentration camp, starved, worked to the bone, tortured, humiliated, maligned, and you have prayed and prayed and prayed in earnest only to watch your family and friends murdered or subjected to sick medical experiments without the slightest bit of intervention or intercession.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 109 of 122 (873633)
03-17-2020 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
03-16-2020 3:04 PM


Re: Gods Existence Is Crucial To My State Of Mind
Phat writes:

When we were teenagers, we would experiment with drugs. If someone we knew gave us a pill....


But after you took the pill you decided - based on the evidence - whether it was a good pill or a bad pill. You didn't just cling to it for better or worse like you do with God.

Phat writes:

You claim that it does not matter whether or not God is real but I strongly disagree.


And yet you have no argument to back up your disagreement, just wishful thinking. If God matters, show the evidence.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 03-16-2020 3:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 03-18-2020 4:02 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 110 of 122 (873694)
03-18-2020 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
03-16-2020 4:56 PM


Genesis 17 Revisited
OK, I looked at Genesis 17. Several questions for us to ponder. Lets take the first part.
Gen 17:1-27 NKJV writes:

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him,"I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

9 And God said to Abraham: "As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

15 Then God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her."

17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!"

19 Then God said: "No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year." 22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

23 So Abraham took Ishmael his son, all who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very same day, as God had said to him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 That very same day Abraham was circumcised, and his son Ishmael; 27 and all the men of his house, born in the house or bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him.


  • Some will look at it as a story intended to explain how the covenant and the laws came from Abraham. The apologists see it as a clear divide between Islam (Ishmael) and Judaism (Isaac).

    My questions begin with this one: Was Abraham really talking with God? Wags and pundits will ask "which god"? My beliefs are set in that there is only One God. Not everyone has the ability, desire, or conceptualization to talk to or even want to talk to such a Being. Others will claim that it is simply us and our conscience having intercession (Inner Session) .Abraham had a lot of people to be responsible for back in those days, and perhaps this conversation with "God" would be a bit like mine. I have a list of things I hope for God to help me with, yet I tend to ignore His nagging list (which He uses ringo to prick my conscience with) commanding me to go out and about helping people with no promise of any reward or payment for doing so. I think my thinking is messed up because my own father used to pay me for mowing the lawn and taking out the garbage and I somehow feel that a fatherly authority figure owes it to me to do likewise. My thoughts and prayers, as well as my actions, are evolving on these matters, however.

    I argue with God occasionally, knowing full well that I have no authority or power to change His mind.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 107 by jar, posted 03-16-2020 4:56 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 112 by jar, posted 03-18-2020 4:13 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 111 of 122 (873695)
    03-18-2020 4:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
    03-17-2020 8:02 PM


    Re: Gods Existence Is Crucial To My State Of Mind
    ringo writes:

    But after you took the pill you decided - based on the evidence - whether it was a good pill or a bad pill. You didn't just cling to it for better or worse like you do with God.

    Interesting that you use the phrase "for better or worse". That part of the process begins before you even get to the alter. You dont simply become a "believer" and then test drive the car and return it. Perhaps you did, however. How many people get married and then find that the evidence shows them better off without her? (Lots, actually)

    Marriage at its best is for life. So is the belief in God. Not to suggest that we ourselves never evolve our own feelings on religion and God Himself, but as in a good marriage, we work those issues out with our significant other rather than simply examine evidence on her record and then simply tossing her out.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 109 by ringo, posted 03-17-2020 8:02 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 119 by ringo, posted 03-20-2020 5:53 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32356
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.0


    Message 112 of 122 (873699)
    03-18-2020 4:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
    03-18-2020 3:57 PM


    Re: Genesis 17 Revisited
    Phat writes:

    My questions begin with this one: Was Abraham really talking with God?

    It's a story Phat, just a story.

    Just as with the Genesis 1 fable and the Genesis 2&3 tale, there is nothing really related to reality or GOD. They are all about rules for a given society and Just So Tales to explain why important things were. Since the Genesis 17 tale was written hundreds or even thousands of years before Islam existed of course it has absolutely nothing to do with Islam. Only fools and conmen would make such connections.

    But the tribes were a reality and each tribe related to a particular patriarch who may even have actually existed.

    Tribal associations often tend to try to create some order and patriarchy or matriarchy are two paths.

    There's little there to ponder Phat.

    Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 110 by Phat, posted 03-18-2020 3:57 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 113 of 122 (873702)
    03-18-2020 4:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 112 by jar
    03-18-2020 4:13 PM


    Re: Genesis 17 Revisited
    There is only little to ponder if you believe that the God of the book and his son were simply human creations. You seem to lean a lot on your intelligence and perceptions of reality. One wonders if you were faced with a 6-month death sentence via doctors or whomever that you would relate to God as you understand Him any differently than you do now. I don't pretend to know. I just relate to Him as I always have, talking, listening and doing in response to my conscience and its communion with my belief.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by jar, posted 03-18-2020 4:13 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 114 by jar, posted 03-18-2020 5:24 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32356
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.0


    Message 114 of 122 (873709)
    03-18-2020 5:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
    03-18-2020 4:21 PM


    Re: Genesis 17 Revisited
    Phat writes:

    There is only little to ponder if you believe that the God of the book and his son were simply human creations.

    What does the evidence show Phat?

    It really is that simple.

    Asking if the character in a story was really talking to some other character in the story makes no sense whatsoever. And as I said, trying to claim that something that did not even exit for hundreds or thousands of years after some story was written was what the author was talking about is just plain stupid.

    The stories can tell you how the author thought his listeners and associates should react but to claim the author was writing to an audience several thousand years in the future is unsupportable.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 113 by Phat, posted 03-18-2020 4:21 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 115 by Phat, posted 03-19-2020 6:03 PM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 115 of 122 (873819)
    03-19-2020 6:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 114 by jar
    03-18-2020 5:24 PM


    The Origins Of The Isaac & Ishmael Mythos
    jar writes:

    Asking if the character in a story was really talking to some other character in the story makes no sense whatsoever. And as I said, trying to claim that something that did not even exit for hundreds or thousands of years after some story was written was what the author was talking about is just plain stupid.

    The stories can tell you how the author thought his listeners and associates should react but to claim the author was writing to an audience several thousand years in the future is unsupportable.

    I don't know if I would use the word "stupid". Here is how one scholar explained the origin of this belief:

    Dr.Mark Durie writes:

    How did this all begin? According to Sir Fergus Millar, Professor Emeritus of Ancient History at Oxford University, it was Josephus, a Jewish historian writing in the first century CE, who first advanced the idea that Ishmael was the ancestor of the Arabs. In The Antiquities of the Jews Josephus stated that Ishmael was "the founder" of the Arabian nation, and Abraham was "their father". From Josephus, this assumed connection between the Arabs and Abraham, through Ishmael, passed into the historical consciousness of Christians, and then made its way into early Islam.

    The Qur'an does not speak of Ishmael or Abraham as ancestors of the Arabs – although it does have Abraham and Ishmael praying for Allah to make their descendants a Muslim people – but the link is established in the hadith literature, in traditions about Muhammad's own genealogy. In this way Abraham and Ishmael came to be considered, in Islamic tradition, not only a spiritual antecedent of Muhammad as an Islamic prophet, but also the physical ancestor of (at least some of) the Arabs.


    Ishmael is Not the Father of the Arabs

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by jar, posted 03-18-2020 5:24 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 116 by jar, posted 03-19-2020 6:24 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32356
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.0


    Message 116 of 122 (873822)
    03-19-2020 6:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
    03-19-2020 6:03 PM


    Re: The Origins Of The Isaac & Ishmael Mythos
    Think Phat, think.

    What you are posting is simply more stupid Apologetics, after the fact made up stuff to justify marketing some ideology or snake oil.

    It all carny and nothing but carny.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 115 by Phat, posted 03-19-2020 6:03 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 117 by Phat, posted 03-20-2020 3:54 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 117 of 122 (873830)
    03-20-2020 3:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 116 by jar
    03-19-2020 6:24 PM


    Re: The Origins Of The Isaac & Ishmael Mythos
    Think jar, think. I simply do not believe your evidence. I have seen examples of Christians who actually have transformed lives. I do not think that anyone and everyone can simply achieve this by joining a club and earning merit badges. Granted Christianity is about what one does and is charged to do, but this desire and effort are helped through joyfully serving a living God and not simply to (again) earn merit badges.

    It seems silly to believe that every Biblical Christian Apologist and Pastor, of which there are well over a million, are all fantasy deluded and/or willful con artists and shysters.

    Granted the majority of Christians have never seen what they would say is evidence for either God or satan, except subjectively. In these cases, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    And I would never trust a Bible "teacher" who explains the book as merely a history of the patriarchs and their mythos.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 116 by jar, posted 03-19-2020 6:24 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 118 by jar, posted 03-20-2020 7:35 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32356
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.0


    Message 118 of 122 (873832)
    03-20-2020 7:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
    03-20-2020 3:54 AM


    Re: The Origins Of The Isaac & Ishmael Mythos
    Phat writes:

    Think jar, think. I simply do not believe your evidence. I have seen examples of Christians who actually have transformed lives.

    Even if that were true Phat it has absolutely no relevance to the post you to which you are replying.

    Phat writes:

    It seems silly to believe that every Biblical Christian Apologist and Pastor, of which there are well over a million, are all fantasy deluded and/or willful con artists and shysters.

    What does the evidence show? To claim that the author of a story is pointing to something that will not even exist for hundreds or thousands of years in the future is just silly.

    Phat writes:

    And I would never trust a Bible "teacher" who explains the book as merely a history of the patriarchs and their mythos.

    But that is not what I have said. Do not underestimate the power of myth.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 117 by Phat, posted 03-20-2020 3:54 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18019
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 119 of 122 (873869)
    03-20-2020 5:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
    03-18-2020 4:02 PM


    Re: Gods Existence Is Crucial To My State Of Mind
    Phat writes:

    ... we work those issues out with our significant other rather than simply examine evidence on her record and then simply tossing her out.


    But you can't "work things out" with God. I've suggested that many times and you keep rejecting it. With your God it's strictly His way or the highway, no working things out, give in to His demands or else. That's no kind of marriage.

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 111 by Phat, posted 03-18-2020 4:02 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 120 by Phat, posted 03-26-2020 10:54 AM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 120 of 122 (874178)
    03-26-2020 10:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 119 by ringo
    03-20-2020 5:53 PM


    Re: Gods Existence Is Crucial To My State Of Mind
    ringo writes:

    But you can't "work things out" with God. I've suggested that many times and you keep rejecting it. With your God it's strictly His way or the highway, no working things out, give in to His demands or else. That's no kind of marriage.

    Its because you limit Him and what He does to the character in the book. With no clear belief/communion/relationship with God apart from the book, (which you will claim is impossible anyway) of course you can't work anything out--no more than you could convince Long John Silver to change his tune.

    This is the basic gulf between our worldviews.

  • Ringo, claiming evidence as to the only standard, concludes that no God exists out of the book. jar agrees, calling Biblical Christians willfully ignorant and embracing fantasy.

  • Phat, having experienced several episodes that would confirm his longstanding belief that God is living and active outside of the book and that he discovered this revelation personally and not corporately, though the church also preaches such things.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 119 by ringo, posted 03-20-2020 5:53 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 121 by jar, posted 03-26-2020 11:42 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 122 by ringo, posted 03-26-2020 5:26 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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