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Author Topic:   When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)
jar
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Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 8 of 702 (569095)
07-20-2010 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Bolder-dash
07-20-2010 9:00 AM


Bolder-dash writes:

He decided to create a world in which there will be mystery; in which we can not understand many of the things that go on in it until after we leave this level and proceed to the next. He didn't want us to know everything right now.

Now, is that any more ridiculous to believe this, then to believe that a chaotic whirl of cosmic chemicals settled down in the right place in the right order to then cascade into a random spiraling of carbon mixing, using a mechanism that we don't know, and which have no empirical evidence for, and one in which we can just create just so stories about how a turtle turned into a Tiger then turned into a monkey, then turned into Richard Feynman-in a world perfectly tuned to allow this to happen, because we can also fabricate more just so stories about this being one of zillions of other universes that we can't see-but somehow some are more wiling to believe in than believe in a spirit?

The first paragraph tells us nothing of importance.

The second paragraph is simply total misrepresentation of what the Theory of Evolution says. It is just nonsense word salad.

The two things that you should take away from this is that any designer is unimportant except for historical interest and for assigning credit and blame.

It does NOT matter who designed the first radio. BUT, it is important when life is involved to assign blame for faulty designs. If you are going to claim that, for example, humans were intentionally designed then there is a definite case for a product liability case against the designer.

Fortunately, when we look at any specific example of biological life we do not see the signs of design.

Long ago, back in this Message 8, I posted the following:

jar writes:

There is also the fact that the designer is too stupid to adopt good ideas.

Consider cars. There are many species or kinds of cars, Packard, Ford, Chevy, Mercedes, Humber, DKW, AutoUnion, Alfa Romeo, Citroen just as there are many kinds of mammals, lions, tigers, bears, man, orangutan, elephant, horse and of course, ohmys.

The difference between something designed, like cars, and those things that are not designed like mammals though can be seen in the difference in how good ideas do not propagate through out the living species or kinds.

In the early 1920s power windshield wipers appeared on the first car. Within only a few years they were found on every car.

In 1923 the first standard equipment radio appeared. Within only a few years they were found on every car.

In 1939, Buick introduced turn signals. Within only a few years they were found on every car.

The list is almost endless.


  • electric wipers instead of vacuum.
  • internal combustion engines.
  • radial tires.
  • heaters.
  • air conditioning.
  • roll down windows.
  • headlights.
  • mirrors.
  • steering wheels.
  • tops.
  • spare tires.
  • space saver spares.
  • starters.
  • the change from generator to alternator.

I could go on but that list should give you an idea.

In each instance this was a new feature that first appeared in only one make, sometimes only one model of a car. The designer though took good ideas from one model and applied those same ideas to EVERY model.

We do not see that when we look at examples of living critters. The humans brain is not then repeated in all mammals, the eagles eyes are not then repeated in all animals, good features, advances do not get incorporated across all the makes and models, species or kind, of mammals.

Looking at living critters what we find is NOT Intelligent Design.

The error most Intelligent Design proponents makes is in thinking that humans or any other example of living thing was a "desired outcome".

There is simply no evidence to support such an assertion.

Now, if you take the position that life in general was the design goal, then you might have a case.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-20-2010 9:00 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 63 of 702 (569283)
07-21-2010 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Bolder-dash
07-21-2010 9:42 AM


Re: Turtles and Tigers and Monkeys... Oh My!
Is there any chance that you might actually respond to any of the issues that others have raised relating to the topic, or will you simply continue to try to change the subject?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 61 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-21-2010 9:42 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 88 of 702 (569410)
07-21-2010 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Buzsaw
07-21-2010 3:01 PM


Re: Logical Answer
HUH?

They split.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 76 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2010 3:01 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 90 of 702 (569412)
07-21-2010 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
07-21-2010 6:27 PM


Re: Logical Answer
Buz writes:

INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS!

The whole idea of Intelligent Design is just plain stupid and quite honestly, even if it were true it would be irrelevant.

Think.

The existence of a designer is of no importance except for assigning blame when product liability suits come up.

Even if there was some designer, that in itself tells us nothing of value. The designer is simply worthless when it comes to understanding the world we see around us.

For ID to ever become anything more than a pitiful joke, a laughing stock, we would need to learn how the thing, be it a star or an eye, was created. We need to know that the shin bone was connected to the ankle bone, and that it was done with muscles and ligaments and the muscles and ligament evolved from undifferentiated stem cells and that the fuel for that was ...

In simple terms, to have any value whatsoever we need to know the steps involved.

Guess what?

That is exactly what scientists do when the study abiogenesis and evolution.

Trying to insert some Special Creation is just plain wasted effort and produces no new knowledge. Talking about or considering Intelligent Design is simply masturbation; it may be fun but it will never birth any new information.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2010 6:27 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 108 of 702 (569470)
07-21-2010 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Buzsaw
07-21-2010 9:41 PM


Re: Logical Answer
We have explained that to you many, many times Buz. But as usual, what you post is also totally irrelevant.

ID, even if it was corroborated is totally irrelevant, worthless and unimportant.

The question you ask. "how the first organism allegedly survived long enough to get complex enough to reproduce more life" is not answered by pretending there is some designer. Designer of no, what is needed to have any knowledge about the question you ask is being perused by science not be Creationists or Intelligent Design marketers.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2010 9:41 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 119 of 702 (569486)
07-21-2010 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Buzsaw
07-21-2010 10:38 PM


Re: Almost Life?
Buz writes:

To nourish itself takes design complex enough to make it want to live.

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense.

It certainly does not have to want to live.

Buz writes:

These are the questions science needs to answer to overcome the advantages ID affords for explaining complex things like life.

Even more nonsense. ID explains nothing.

That's about the most important thing you can learn Buz, even if ID was true it explains NOTHING. It leaves us as ignorant about how anything happened as we were before.

Edited by jar, : left out a word


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2010 8:10 AM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 125 of 702 (569498)
07-21-2010 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ICdesign
07-21-2010 10:56 PM


Re: When its intelligent
ICDESIGN writes:

We are at the fine tuned distance where the temperature is just right for life on earth. Those margins are the end where you burn up or freeze. Fine tuned means in a comfortable range. Yes fine tuned indeeedah.

Sorry but that is simply nonsense. Do you have any idea of what conditions life even here on earth can endure?

In addition, what makes you think life has to be like the one sample we know so far?

ICDESIGN writes:

You and yours know more about the lie of evolution.

Again, more nonsense.

Evolution is a fact. Period. Not even open to question.

Now the Theory of Evolution is constantly being challenged and as new information is discovered it ... evolves.

However Intelligent Design is simply a waste of effort, pointless masturbation. Even if true, it tells us nothing of importance or relevance about how the life we see all around us came into being.

And I am a Christian.

And, as tens of thousands of Christian Clergy have said...

Clergy Project Letter writes:

We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 155 of 702 (569574)
07-22-2010 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Buzsaw
07-22-2010 8:10 AM


Re: Almost Life?
Buz writes:

The fact is that all ID need answer to explain all of the wonderful highly complex systems in the universe is that there is indeed a designer powerful, intelligent and eternal so as to effect it all. That nicely and sensibly explains it all.

No Buz, that is simply nonsense. It explains nothing.

The designer is irrelevant except in lawsuits when it is shown the design was knowing flawed.

No designed thing is EVER accountable to a designer. That is of course another silly statement.

Let me try to make this clear yet again.

Pick some item that we know was designed, say a paper clip.

Now I can look at a paper clip and verify that it functions as a paper clip. Whether it was designed is irrelevant. Whether there was a designer is irrelevant. Neither I or the paper clip are in any way accountable to the designer even if the designer did exist.

If you think that the designer is of some relevance you are going to have to stop just making silly assertions and explain why the designer is relevant at all.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2010 8:10 AM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 165 of 702 (569596)
07-22-2010 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by ICANT
07-22-2010 11:01 AM


Re: Logical Answer
ICANT writes:

Are you telling me you don't believe in the creation of the universe?

Did the universe always exist?

If it was not created where did it come from?

Was it created by an intelligent designer?

Or

Was it created by some unknown particle that existed in non existence but appeared out of that non existence and formed the universe?

That depends on what you mean by creation and the universe.

If you mean creation in the sense that ice is created when water at normal atmospheric pressure is cooled below zero degrees centigrade, then yes, the universe was created.

Whether or not there was some designer is of course, irrelevant and unimportant. The universe exists.

Where it came from is one of those questions that sounds like it should make sense but when you look at it, really is pointless and again irrelevant unless you are talking about coming from in the trivial senses that ice comes from water.

The universe did not come from anything.

The facts are that we do have evidence that natural forces exist.

There is no evidence of any designer.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ICANT, posted 07-22-2010 11:01 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by ICANT, posted 07-22-2010 12:22 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 168 of 702 (569605)
07-22-2010 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by ICANT
07-22-2010 12:03 PM


Re: Information
ICANT writes:

I did ask the question of whether this information was provided by intelligence or happened by accident.

The answer to both of those questions is "No, it was not provided by intelligence or by accident."


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 172 of 702 (569611)
07-22-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by ICANT
07-22-2010 12:22 PM


Re: Logical Answer
ICANT writes:

By universe I mean everything material that we can see and everything we can not see that exists.

By creation I mean the beginning of existence of the universe.

We know the universe exists. We can observe it.

Did it begin to exist 13.7 billion years ago as put forth?

OR

Has it always existed in some form?

I go with the latter.

We can say with a very high degree of confidence, so high that the term certain is appropriate, that the universe we see has not always existed.

ICANT writes:

jar writes:

The universe did not come from anything.

Are you saying it came from non existence?

If so by what process was that accomplished?

I am not saying that it came from non-existence however it most certainly did not exist.

ICANT writes:

jar writes:

The facts are that we do have evidence that natural forces exist.

How do you determine those forces are natural?

HUH. By observation. When we reduce the temperature of water at nomal atmospheric pressure below zero degrees centigrade it freezes. No intelligence needed.

ICANT writes:

jar writes:

There is no evidence of any designer.

We do have what we call the laws of physics. These are rules for certain things to happen in certain ways.

The question is where did these laws come from?

Were they provided by intelligence?

OR

Where they provided by some accident?

They did have to exist before the universe began to expand.

Even if they were provided by some intelligence that is irrelevant and unimportant.

Nor are the only option accident or intelligence.

There is however evidence of accidents so that is a possibility.

There is no evidence though of some designer.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by ICANT, posted 07-22-2010 12:22 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2010 1:11 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 179 of 702 (569660)
07-22-2010 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Buzsaw
07-22-2010 6:03 PM


Re: When does design become intelligent?
Buz writes:

Even an alien from outer space could soon distinguish things manufactured from things like rocks, snowflakes (all different), stalagmites etc. They see things made of steel, plastic etc almost cry out, "I'm designed." Though there are a few exceptions, most things like rocks and stalagmites, snowflakes are all different according to the elements which make them up and the environs. There are different sized paperclips but according to the manufacture, all have the same design.

Of course. Even an alien can see that paper clips and cars were designed and stuff like rocks and living things are NOT designed. It is so obvious that no reasoning critter could mistake the two.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2010 6:03 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 187 of 702 (569880)
07-24-2010 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ICANT
07-24-2010 1:11 PM


Re: Logical Answer
ICANT writes:

Are you saying that the universe as we know it has not always existed?

Yes.

ICANT writes:

Was it an accident?

No.

ICANT writes:

Was it caused by an intelligent being?

No.

ICANT writes:

jar writes:

I am not saying that it came from non-existence however it most certainly did not exist.

If it did not come from non-existence then it had to exist in some form.

Utter nonsense.

ICANT writes:

jar writes:

Even if they were provided by some intelligence that is irrelevant and unimportant.

But that is what this thread is about, so how is it irrelevant or unimportant?

Either the laws of Physics was given by an intelligent designer or they just happened by accident prior to expansion.

Nonsense. But even if it were true it is unimportant and irrelevant.

There is evidence of laws of physics, and we discover new ones all the time. Inserting some imaginary designer tells us nothing of value.

The laws of physics that govern this universe did not exist prior to the expansion, they are a product of the expansion. Their is no evidence or reason to think they were given by some designer rather than the absolutely natural result of the expansion.

ICANT writes:

jar writes:

There is however evidence of accidents so that is a possibility.

And you have evidence that there are laws that have been created by accidents. Yes/No

No, of course not. Accidents do happen but there is no need of accidents to explain the laws of physics.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2010 1:11 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2010 2:57 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 194 of 702 (569892)
07-24-2010 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by ICANT
07-24-2010 2:57 PM


Re: Logical Answer
ICANT writes:

Help me get this straight.

The universe has not always existed.

It did not begin to exist because of an accident.

It was not made to begin to exist by an intelligent being.

Yes you have it straight.

ICANT writes:

How did the universe begin to exist?

That is what science is examining. When we know maybe someone will tell you.

ICANT writes:

jar writes:

The laws of physics that govern this universe did not exist prior to the expansion,

Then what controlled the expansion beginning with the start of the expansion?

Huh?

See above. That is one of the questions that science is examining now.

ICANT writes:

I still think an intelligent designer in control is the best answer.

I know you think that but it is irrelevant and tells us nothing about what happened. Whether there was a designer or not simply doesn't matter, we still need to figure out how the designer did it.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2010 2:57 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2010 4:22 PM jar has responded
 Message 197 by Buzsaw, posted 07-24-2010 4:25 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31625
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 200 of 702 (569903)
07-24-2010 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by ICANT
07-24-2010 4:22 PM


Re: Logical Answer
I understand that you don't understand it and that you are satisfied with "the designer did it" as an explanation, but some of us understand that doesn't tell us how anything happened.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2010 4:22 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2010 9:47 PM jar has responded

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