|
Author
|
Topic: When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
Message 420 of 702 (571006)
07-29-2010 4:29 PM
|
Reply to: Message 415 by ICANT
07-29-2010 4:09 PM
|
|
Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
ICANT writes: Since we do not have that life form we can not know what it had or did not have. Tell me what chemical reactions can create information. jar writes: However the study of Abiogenesis is currently working towards understanding what was possible. All chemical reactions produce information. The results of the reactions contain lots of information. Start with hydrous magnesium iron phyllosilicate and depending on trace minerals and temperature and pressure and time you get asbestos or serpentine or bowintite. Chemical reactions produce information. There is no difference between what happens to create Deoxyribonucleic acid or serpentine.
ICANT writes: There is no evidence that the first life form was caused by chaos or whether it was intelligently designed. The only evidence we have for either is the words of mankind. Again, that is simply not true and you have been shown that is not true. While chaos is not suggested in anything I have posted, there is evidence for chemical reactions. There is NO evidence of any Intelligent Designer.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 415 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 4:09 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 437 by ICANT, posted 07-30-2010 11:40 AM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 422 of 702 (571008)
07-29-2010 4:33 PM
|
Reply to: Message 416 by ICANT
07-29-2010 4:16 PM
|
|
information vs intelligence
ICANT writes: jar writes: Please show where I mentioned information. You did mention intelligence and said it was not required. Well all information I am familiar with requires intelligence to begin to exist. I cannot help your ignorance except by trying to provide you with the information again, and again, and again.
ICANT writes: Do you have an example of information that does not require intelligence to begin to exist? What is the process that information would go through to begin to exist? Yes. Deoxyribonucleic acid requires no intelligence to begin. It is the result of normal chemical reactions. Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 416 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 4:16 PM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 442 of 702 (571120)
07-30-2010 12:07 PM
|
Reply to: Message 437 by ICANT
07-30-2010 11:40 AM
|
|
Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
ICANT writes: What information is produced when I boil water? I thought chemical reactions produce gas, heat, or some type of substance. Boiling water is not a chemical reaction.
ICANT writes: Could you present a source that supports that assertion? That is called...chemistry. It's not an assertion but rather a conclusion.
ICANT writes: I agree there is evidence for chemical reactions. There are a couple of household chemicals you can buy at the grocery store that when combined can cause a nasty explosion. There is no evidence that the combination of any chemicals can produce a life form. So far the only possible model that has any evidence is that life is the product of chemical reactions. There is no other model.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 437 by ICANT, posted 07-30-2010 11:40 AM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 449 by ICANT, posted 07-30-2010 12:37 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 451 of 702 (571133)
07-30-2010 12:45 PM
|
Reply to: Message 449 by ICANT
07-30-2010 12:37 PM
|
|
Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
ICANT writes: You mean if I change the properties of the chemicals that make up water into steam there is no chemical reaction. Then please explain to me what kind of a reaction it is. You do not change the properties of the water. Steam is still just water.
ICANT writes: I would like to see some of that reproducible, verifiable empiricl evidence. Do you have a source for any? Did you actually read what I wrote? Or do you simply enjoy trying to see if we notice you trying to change the subject?
jar writes: So far the only possible model that has any evidence is that life is the product of chemical reactions. That is the only model out there. There is no other model. Do you even understand what a model is? We have evidence that chemical and physical reactions exist. There is no evidence or model that has been presented other than chemical and physical causes. If you have a different model, then present it.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 449 by ICANT, posted 07-30-2010 12:37 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 472 of 702 (571176)
07-30-2010 3:45 PM
|
Reply to: Message 466 by ICANT
07-30-2010 2:55 PM
|
|
Re: More Of Your Sauce
ICANT writes: My mechanism for the origin of the universe. In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. That is not a model or mechanism. To be a model or mechanism you need to specify how God created heaven and earth and the mechanism must be testable.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 466 by ICANT, posted 07-30-2010 2:55 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 519 by ICANT, posted 07-31-2010 1:00 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 484 of 702 (571254)
07-30-2010 10:51 PM
|
Reply to: Message 480 by Buzsaw
07-30-2010 10:32 PM
|
|
Buz still presents no model
Buz writes: Intelligence; no intelligence implicated in petrification of wood, etc. whereas DNA, genes, the human eye and childbirth all implicate intelligence. So you keep asserting yet you never, ever, have presented the model showing how that imaginary intelligence did anything. Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 480 by Buzsaw, posted 07-30-2010 10:32 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 485 by Bikerman, posted 07-30-2010 11:33 PM | | jar has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: More Of Your Sauce
Bolder-dash writes: Can these squiggles of yours say where thought began? Neuroimaging tells us where thoughts begin. But yet again, what does any of this have to do with the question of "When does design become intelligent?" The question does have an answer, we can see examples of things designed by intelligence. When we compare those known examples of intelligent design to what is seen in nature or in living critters we find that nature and living critters do NOT show the characteristics of intelligent design.
quote:
There is also the fact that the designer is too stupid to adopt good ideas. Consider cars. There are many species or kinds of cars, Packard, Ford, Chevy, Mercedes, Humber, DKW, AutoUnion, Alfa Romeo, Citroen just as there are many kinds of mammals, lions, tigers, bears, man, orangutan, elephant, horse and of course, ohmys. The difference between something designed, like cars, and those things that are not designed like mammals though can be seen in the difference in how good ideas do not propagate through out the living species or kinds. In the early 1920s power windshield wipers appeared on the first car. Within only a few years they were found on every car. In 1923 the first standard equipment radio appeared. Within only a few years they were found on every car. In 1939, Buick introduced turn signals. Within only a few years they were found on every car. The list is almost endless. * electric wipers instead of vacuum.
* internal combustion engines.
* radial tires.
* heaters.
* air conditioning.
* roll down windows.
* headlights.
* mirrors.
* steering wheels.
* tops.
* spare tires.
* space saver spares.
* starters.
* the change from generator to alternator. I could go on but that list should give you an idea. In each instance this was a new feature that first appeared in only one make, sometimes only one model of a car. The designer though took good ideas from one model and applied those same ideas to EVERY model. We do not see that when we look at examples of living critters. The humans brain is not then repeated in all mammals, the eagles eyes are not then repeated in all animals, good features, advances do not get incorporated across all the makes and models, species or kind, of mammals. Looking at living critters what we find is NOT Intelligent Design.
From this post
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: More Of Your Sauce
Bolder-dash writes: Wow, you want to call a discussion about differentiating between the different bits of matter on the universe 'sophomore salad" and you come up with this tripe appetizer? Things don't appear designed in the universe, because they are not the same as a Buick. We have a new standard of higher intelligence-General Motors. So perhaps you would care to present the support for your position and NOT continue posting untruths. I doubt you can show where I called General Motors a standard of "higher intelligence". However, the point I raise in the discussion, the transfer of good ideas throughout the whole population of motor vehicles regardless of 'species', is a trait of intelligent design. We do NOT see that trait is either nature or living critters.
quote:
We do not see that when we look at examples of living critters. The humans brain is not then repeated in all mammals, the eagles eyes are not then repeated in all animals, good features, advances do not get incorporated across all the makes and models, species or kind, of mammals. Looking at living critters what we find is NOT Intelligent Design.
If you like, I can show the same trait in almost every other known example of intelligent design.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 505 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-31-2010 11:12 AM | | Bolder-dash has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 508 of 702 (571324)
07-31-2010 11:27 AM
|
Reply to: Message 507 by Bikerman
07-31-2010 11:22 AM
|
|
define intelliegence
Bikerman writes: I haven't yet seen any definition of terms in this thread. Until we say what intelligence actually is then it would seem premature to go looking for it.... Well, I have defined intelligent design as what we can see designed by the one intelligent designer we can agree exists, humans. I'm not trying to define intelligence as much as to point out traits of things we know for a fact were designed.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 507 by Bikerman, posted 07-31-2010 11:22 AM | | Bikerman has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 512 of 702 (571331)
07-31-2010 11:46 AM
|
Reply to: Message 511 by Bikerman
07-31-2010 11:38 AM
|
|
Re: define intelliegence
I'm not the one you need to convince. BUT...I am one of them folk that think them Bower Birds are pretty smart, certainly smarter than the Intelligent Designer. 
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 511 by Bikerman, posted 07-31-2010 11:38 AM | | Bikerman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 513 by Bikerman, posted 07-31-2010 12:06 PM | | jar has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 521 of 702 (571357)
07-31-2010 1:27 PM
|
Reply to: Message 519 by ICANT
07-31-2010 1:00 PM
|
|
is it a model?
ICANT writes: I did not say it was a model. I did say it was my mechanism. Mechanism definition: 1 a : a piece of machinery b : a process, technique, or system for achieving a result. It is not even a mechanism even using the definition you provided. Until you present a model that explains things better than the current models, you are simply talking nonsense. Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 519 by ICANT, posted 07-31-2010 1:00 PM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 550 of 702 (571435)
07-31-2010 5:48 PM
|
Reply to: Message 544 by ICANT
07-31-2010 5:24 PM
|
|
Re: More Of Your Sauce
ICANT writes: So if we can observe the laws of nature that means some process is being performed by those laws that we can observe. If those laws are performing a process they need to have information to perform those processes. Some entity had to put those laws into effect for them to exist. They can not be a part of the universe as they control the universe. Utter nonsense. I suppose you can support that crap? You do know that "Laws" are nothing but human creations describing what nature does don't you?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 544 by ICANT, posted 07-31-2010 5:24 PM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 551 of 702 (571436)
07-31-2010 5:51 PM
|
Reply to: Message 547 by Bikerman
07-31-2010 5:35 PM
|
|
We need to make allowances for Creationist and Intelligent Design advocates or they will have no argument at all.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 547 by Bikerman, posted 07-31-2010 5:35 PM | | Bikerman has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 560 of 702 (571451)
07-31-2010 6:58 PM
|
Reply to: Message 559 by ICANT
07-31-2010 6:52 PM
|
|
Re: Designer
Yet more misrepresentation.
ICANT writes: Actually I have read it and have been told by one of our resident cosmologist Son Goku that was the themperature that existed at the point the universe began to expand. That may well be what Son Goku said but it is unrelated to what YOU said. YOU said...
ICANT writes: Current physics don't know what existed at singularity. We guess it was 100 billion degrees K. Can you really not see the difference and the error you made?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 559 by ICANT, posted 07-31-2010 6:52 PM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 616 of 702 (571795)
08-02-2010 12:19 PM
|
Reply to: Message 615 by ICANT
08-02-2010 12:13 PM
|
|
dealing with idiotic comments
ICANT writes: 1,000,000,000 nanograms = 1 gram, = 750,000,000,000 mgb. 750,000,000,000 megabytes = 750,000,000 Gb = 750,000 T. If there was ever any doubt, that post removed it. Sheesh. Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 615 by ICANT, posted 08-02-2010 12:13 PM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2