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Author Topic:   When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 646 of 702 (571835)
08-02-2010 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by ICANT
08-02-2010 11:53 AM


Re: More Of Your Sauce
I am told because we can see some things evolve to a certain point that infers that evolution of all things took place from a single cell life form to present day life forms.

No. You're told that because we see the processes of natural selection and randim mutation produce arbitrary complexity, they can be the explanation for how all living things could be descended from a single Last Universal Common Ancestor.

Were they? Observation of natural selection and random mutation offers no support for that hypothesis. To support that hypothesis, we turn to genetic and fossil evidence, which is overwhelming.

So can I ask for and demand the evidence for the parts of evvolution that has never been observed in the so-called process of evolution.

Sure you can. But right now we're talking about your contention that because some information comes from minds, all of it must come from minds. Don't change the subject.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by ICANT, posted 08-02-2010 11:53 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 766 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 647 of 702 (571836)
08-02-2010 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 639 by ICANT
08-02-2010 4:15 PM


Chicken and egg question.
ICANT writes:

It is a known fact information is produced by a mind.

And it's an observed fact that information is a prerequisite for the production of minds.

Information first!


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 648 of 702 (571837)
08-02-2010 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 615 by ICANT
08-02-2010 12:13 PM


Re: Antenna gains
1,000,000,000 nanograms = 1 gram, = 750,000,000,000 mgb.

This is well in excess of the amount of genetic information in any human cell. How are you doing this math? How do you justify a conversion between cell mass and data size?

The entire human genome is only 3,000 mbp (or 3 gbp.) One megabasepair isn't the equivalent of one megabyte; a byte is eight bits but you need only two bits to specify a nucleotide base, because there are only four. (2 to the power of 2.)

So we have 750,000 times the information stored in 1 gram of human DNA as can be stored in 1T hard drive.

No, we don't. You're just making things up, now. 3 billion base pairs can be represented by two bits each, since there are only four bases. That adds up to less than 750 megabytes, a footprint smaller than any hard drive produced since 1994.

The intelligent designer that designed the human DNA was a lot smarter than human designers are.

You're right that natural selection and random mutation is a more effective way to produce information and design than intelligence.


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 Message 615 by ICANT, posted 08-02-2010 12:13 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 649 of 702 (571838)
08-02-2010 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by ICANT
08-02-2010 12:59 PM


Re: Antenna gains
So 1 gram of human cells would contain 750,000,000,000 megabytes of stored information.

All those cells would have the same information, though. Remember that the cells in your body are clones of each other.

Again the entire human genome is no more than 750 megabytes and can be downloaded in the space of seconds.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by ICANT, posted 08-02-2010 7:45 PM crashfrog has responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 18875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 650 of 702 (571839)
08-02-2010 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 639 by ICANT
08-02-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Antenna gains
ICANT writes:

The random mutation generator that Perry has is simply a generator that mutates information.

Yes, but it doesn't do "Darwinian Evolution experiments" like he claims, does it, because it cannot perform meaningful selection. That's why it's misleading. Random text substitution is not an analog for evolution.

You need to address the rest of my message that explained why Marshall's descriptive text was also wildly misleading.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Clarify.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 651 of 702 (571840)
08-02-2010 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 641 by DrJones*
08-02-2010 4:23 PM


Re: Antenna gains
Hi DrJones,

DrJones writes:

Why wouldn't it? They just had less knowledge, knowledge and intelligence are not the same thing.

Do you mean to tell me we have not evolved above the earliest mankind known to exist. They just didn't have the knowledge we do. Is that what you are saying.

I thought the IQ of humans had increased in the last 50 years.

I do know that intelligence and knowledge are not the same thing.

Intelligence is the ability and capacity to learn information which is knowledge.

Does everybody posess the same Intelligence?

If so why do we have college graduates that can not speak in a complete sentence?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by DrJones*, posted 08-02-2010 4:23 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by DrJones*, posted 08-02-2010 5:20 PM ICANT has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1957
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 652 of 702 (571841)
08-02-2010 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 651 by ICANT
08-02-2010 5:13 PM


Re: Antenna gains
Do you mean to tell me we have not evolved above the earliest mankind known to exist. They just didn't have the knowledge we do. Is that what you are saying.

Of course we've evolved over the the earliest mankind, but thats not what we were talking about. You mentioned humans of 100 years ago, don't try to shift the goalposts now.

I thought the IQ of humans had increased in the last 50 years.

It might have. I'd like to see some evidence of this and if the increase was actually of a significant amount.

Does everybody posess the same Intelligence?

Of course not, and that is obviously not what I said.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 653 of 702 (571843)
08-02-2010 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 642 by Huntard
08-02-2010 4:30 PM


Re: Antenna gains
Hi Huntard,

Huntard writes:

Because they didn't know what caused those deseases. And did they really still bleed people in 1910?

If I remember correctly they did not stop bleeding people until 1925 when it was discovered that the life of the flesh was in the blood.

Huntard writes:

Because they didn't have the means and the knowledge to build them.

If they had the Intelligence of humans today why did they not gain the knowledge and create the means?

Huntard writes:

That's probably because you are confusing intelligence with knowledge and capability.

I am not confusing intelligence and knowledge.

Intelligence is the ability and capability of an individual to acquire knowledge which is information.

All minds are not capable of the same things nor do they have the same capability.

Huntard writes:

Depends on where I read it, or what it is that is claimed.

You did quote Dr Adequate when you made the statement "we did it better than him" and added than him.

His source says that it is not possible yet to even do what the claims are that is made.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 642 by Huntard, posted 08-02-2010 4:30 PM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by Blue Jay, posted 08-02-2010 5:38 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 655 by crashfrog, posted 08-02-2010 5:40 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 656 by ringo, posted 08-02-2010 5:46 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 657 by Huntard, posted 08-02-2010 5:51 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 659 by onifre, posted 08-02-2010 5:54 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 661 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-02-2010 6:20 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 987 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 654 of 702 (571844)
08-02-2010 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by ICANT
08-02-2010 5:35 PM


Re: Antenna gains
Hi, ICANT.

ICANT writes:

If they had the Intelligence of humans today why did they not gain the knowledge and create the means?

They did. It just took rather longer than you seem to think is reasonable.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by ICANT, posted 08-02-2010 5:35 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 655 of 702 (571845)
08-02-2010 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by ICANT
08-02-2010 5:35 PM


Re: Antenna gains
If I remember correctly they did not stop bleeding people until 1925 when it was discovered that the life of the flesh was in the blood.

Could you elaborate on how and when that "discovery" was made?

The ignorance you have about the history and process of science really beggars belief. It's on par with your inability to perform basic multiplication.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by ICANT, posted 08-02-2010 5:35 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 679 by ICANT, posted 08-02-2010 9:12 PM crashfrog has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17439
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 656 of 702 (571846)
08-02-2010 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by ICANT
08-02-2010 5:35 PM


Re: Antenna gains
ICANT writes:

Intelligence is the ability and capability of an individual to acquire knowledge which is information.


That's why I mentioned earlier that it seems demeaning to ascribe intelligence to a god. Your god can "acquire knowledge"? Meaning he isn't omniscient? Omniscience and intelligence would seem to be mutually exclusive.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 584 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 657 of 702 (571847)
08-02-2010 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by ICANT
08-02-2010 5:35 PM


Re: Antenna gains
ICANT writes:

If I remember correctly they did not stop bleeding people until 1925 when it was discovered that the life of the flesh was in the blood.


Nice bible reference there, you think nobody before 1925 knew that if someone bleeds alot, they gonna die? Do you think nobody knoew before the bible was written?

If they had the Intelligence of humans today why did they not gain the knowledge and create the means?

Because knowledge is a cumulative process, not an instant one.

I am not confusing intelligence and knowledge.

You quite clearly are.

Intelligence is the ability and capability of an individual to acquire knowledge which is information.

No. Intelligence is an umbrella term describing a property of the mind including related abilities, such as the capacities for abstract thought, understanding, communication, reasoning, learning, learning from past experiences, planning, and problem solving. (from wiki). The measure of the capability of the person to do this is called intelligence, and it has nothing to do with what that person knows or is capable of doing, even if he did know. For instance, I could have the knowledge to build a nuclear reactor, but were I stuck in the stone age, I don't think I could ever get one built. It is my capability that is preventing me from building the nuclear reactor, not my knowledge or intelligence.

All minds are not capable of the same things nor do they have the same capability.

That's why I never claimed they were.

You did quote Dr Adequate when you made the statement "we did it better than him" and added than him.

His source says that it is not possible yet to even do what the claims are that is made.


No it doesn't. it quite clearly shows that those scientists succeeded in putting one bit of information on 20 atoms, wheresas your intelligent designer needs 64 to store two. Now, some of that math you love so much:

64 / 2 = 32 (this is the amount of atoms your designer needed to store one bit of information)

32 - 20 = 12 (this is the amount of atoms we did it fewer in)

Clearly, by your own admission, we are more intelligent than your designer, since we did it way more efficiently than him.


This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 658 of 702 (571848)
08-02-2010 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by ringo
08-02-2010 4:31 PM


Re: Information
Hi Ringo,

Ringo writes:

You claim your sources can do it and you claim you understand them.

Where Have I ever claimed to understand anything that was not written in the Bible?

I have claimed the sources I provided states there is information contained in DNA.

They also state that information is transfered from inside the nucelus of the cell by mRNA to the ribsome outside the nucelus to create the protein needed.

They also state that the information contained in the DNA contains the complete blueprint for the living being it resides in.

Now if you want to refute what they say don't expect me to argue the point with you. Which is what you are trying to get me to do.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by ringo, posted 08-02-2010 4:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 660 by ringo, posted 08-02-2010 6:10 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 659 of 702 (571849)
08-02-2010 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by ICANT
08-02-2010 5:35 PM


Re: Antenna gains
If they had the Intelligence of humans today why did they not gain the knowledge and create the means?

Can you build a super computer, today?

Why do you lack an infinite amount of knowledge, today?

You have the means, the access to information, people willing to teach you, yet you bask in your ignorance and point fingers at others for not having certain knowledge on things that they just simply couldn't have known?

You CAN know, so why do you remain ignorant on various subjects?

I'm sure that humans who lived 100,000 years ago had all the knowledge and intelligence their environment required for them to survive, why? because we're here today. However, today's human would probably have not survived given the same environment.

By today's standards, they weren't so knowledgable, by their standards in those days, we know useless information and lack all the survival skills they did. What good is all the knowledge of today if you'd be dead in a week from some environmental hazard?

Who was truly more intelligent?

All minds are not capable of the same things nor do they have the same capability.

Genetics and environment determine intelligence, for the most part.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17439
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 660 of 702 (571850)
08-02-2010 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 658 by ICANT
08-02-2010 5:51 PM


Re: Information
ICANT writes:

Where Have I ever claimed to understand anything that was not written in the Bible?


You claimed that I disagreed with your sources. How could you make that claim if you didn't understand your sources?

ICANT writes:

They also state that information is transfered from inside the nucelus of the cell by mRNA to the ribsome outside the nucelus to create the protein needed.

They also state that the information contained in the DNA contains the complete blueprint for the living being it resides in.


And I explained to you what that means. I explained that it's all a mechanical process and that's what they said. You are the only one who's claiming that DNA is somehow "special" and doesn't work like other molecules, that it requires intelligence.

ICANT writes:

Now if you want to refute what they say don't expect me to argue the point with you. Which is what you are trying to get me to do.


There you go again, being dishonest. I have told you more than once that I don't want to refute what your sources say. I agree with them 100% because - here it is again - I learned everything I know from them. In one breath you deny claiming to understand them and in the next breath you claim that I disagree with them. You can't have it both ways.

I am definitely not trying to get you to argue any point. I know very well, and anybody reading this thread knows very well that you have no point to argue. All you have is bald assertions and insults.

I am trying to help you understand at least one or two basic points. I want you to think about what the "information" on DNA looks like.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by ICANT, posted 08-02-2010 5:51 PM ICANT has not yet responded

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