Circular reasoning

I say that I am.From what logical basis do you reject my claim of "self-authentication"? I'm me (or, if you prefer "I AM THAT I AM"), I do what I do, and you should believe me because I say you should.From what logical basis do you reject my claim to self-authentication? I do, very much. What are they?

The Theory of Evolution does not try to explain metaphysics. Nor does it ever assume a miracle occurred. No science relies on miracles.You need to stop misrepresenting things. Yet more misrepresentation. I never said that GOD was a fictional character. I said that the gods in the stories are characters created by the authors of the stories.Of course, I don't think Moses ever wrote anything, may not even have existed.I care because I believe that a charge has been laid upon us, beginning with the great gift of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the charge to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sorrowful, shelter the homeless, help the weak, teach the children; you know, "Do unto others as I would have them do unto me."

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Sorry, but if the ToE is going to tell me where I came from and how I came to be, it must also explain EVERYTHING about me. To compare the ToE with the theory of gravity, or germ theory, or quantum theory is plain silly. Those theories, like you accurately point out, are not beholden to explain everything. But since evolution is about life itself, its stuck in a rut that it can't get out of. Oh, you are educating me. I didn't know you guys like to pretend like you didn't know that the ToE relies on abiogenesis--clearly a miracle.

Which model of abiogenesis?You did know there are more than one, right?

I can't believe we have gotten down to this nonsense. Anyway, what can I do now...Can you answer my all my questions and be proven to be right via external ways?Can you always be right?Do you know things that I don't?Are you perfect?Hell, why do I even need to consider you??? Prove to me that you are an applicable candidate and then, I shall take your self-authenticity in consideration.You do realize that God does things to show how He is the ultimate authority after claiming it , right? Right. So please do something. I do not count reason to be the ultimate authority because often rationality is wrong.I do not count science, because often science is wrongI do not count myself, because I am often wrong and am imperfect.I do not count other people, for obvious reasons.I do not count anything that is often wrong or imperfect.I believe that God is always right and perfect, just as He says in His Word. My faith in god's character is my basis for counting God as the ultimate authority.

Really?Admittedly the term Abiogenesis could include a miracle, a god blowing magic breath on mud, but all Abiogenesis means is life from non-life.So far though there is evidence for possible chemical origins of life, several different possible Theories of Abiogenesis, but no evidence yet for some magic breath.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

What exactly do you believe? you do realize that your atheist chums also care about all these things, right? Without caring about God, that is.

Okay, I will try to educate you.Evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis. The ToE describes how life changes once it has begun. Life may have begun by a god breathing life into a pile of dust. It may have begun from extraterrestrial microorganisms hitching a ride on a comet. It may have begun by aliens seeding the planet. It makes no difference.Plus, abiogenesis isn't a miracle. If it happened, it was a result of chemicals coming together in the exact same ways that they still come together today. Nothing miraculous about it. Why?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Wow. I doubt that there is anyone here at EvC who has written more about what he believes then me. If you pick a topic there's a good chance there is a thread already here where my position has been posted, discussed and challenged. Yup. That's why I believe there will likely be far more Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostic, Satanists, Taoists, Hindus, Buddhists, Animists, Confucians and Wicaans in heaven than Christians.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Well, well, well, at last we're getting somewhere.You believe your god when he says he's the ultimate authority because he's always right. Believe it or not, this is actually something that I could be willing to sign on to. If any being could actually do the things that you believe your god does, predict the future, know everything and always be right, I'd accept him as an ultimate authority. Of course, I would do so, not because he says so, but because he demonstrates that capacity.Thus, despite your best efforts, you've shown that your reasoning is not circular.Now, all you have to do it demonstrate that your god actually has the characteristics you attribute to him and you'll have a convert. In fact, I suspect you'd have several, right here. But I won't hold my breath, because I'm fairly certain you can't do that.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

If you expect people at a science-based forum board to ignore it when you post nonsense, you haven't been around very much.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This is precisely the nonsense that you allow in when you take "self-authentication" at face-value instead of recognizing it as the fallacy of begging the question. As far as you know! Because I presented you with a claim to "self-authentication." From what logical basis do you reject the claim? No, he doesn't. And why would it matter if he did so after you've accepted the claim? You've already accepted his claim to self-authentication, you're already convinced. Why would he need to convince the convinced? What is your basis for this belief besides God's supposed claim to these qualities? Or is this yet another claim of "self-authentication"? If that's the case, then also claim to be always right and perfect, just as I say in my words. (Which are these words.)

But how can nonsense cure nonsense? Thank you crashfrog- you admitted your proposal to be nonsense. And so that means we can talk about real matters now.Let's talk about what makes a candidate suitable for being the ultimate authority.Can anything that is often wrong be an ultimate authority?Can anything that does not posses all realms of reality be an ultimate authority? Again, you're playing psychologist.How do you know exactly when I believed God to be ultimate authority. Was it right after I came to know that He claimed it? We it after I observed a few reasons for it being so? How do you know when exactly. And why do you pretend like you know my mind.If I told you that God's character, and self-authentication, and works, and external sources all collectively contributed to my belief, would you then keep quiet? You don't know? Its called faith. Calling yourself a teapot doesn't make you one, crashfrog. Calling yourself perfect is like saying that triangles are four-sided. Edited by Pauline, : No reason given.

A more apropos question would be how can you reason someone out of believing nonsense?BTW, I'd appreciate it if once in a while you'd endeavor to answer the questions I ask you, and respond to the points I make. After all, that is the purpose of a debate forum, and it's actually expected of participants here.Just a heads up for you.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Curiously, I expect the same from you.Reply with irrelevant posts is not the same as making an effort to answer the points in question. And I prefer silence to babbling. There might be many reasons why I ignore certain posts. It might be because that person doesn't get the point, or it might be because he is trying to distract the topic, or it might be because multiple people have already made that point, or it might be because I don't have much time, or it might be because I have a life other than EvC, or it might be because I don't have an answer. I have tried my best to not let anything relevant go. And I think I should know what's relevant and not since I made the topic. If you feel like I'm not being fair, then please point out specifically what exactly you're wanting me to respond to.