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Author Topic:   Circular reasoning
Pauline
Member (Idle past 1815 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 61 of 142 (570749)
07-28-2010 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
07-28-2010 10:19 AM


Please let me know if I am correct in interpreting this to mean that:

A) Science is self-authenticating (because it can always "demonstrate the rights and reasons to claim X").

B) Religion is not self-authenticating (because it cannot "demonstrate the rights and reasons to claim X")*.

No, that's not what I meant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-28-2010 10:19 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not yet responded

    
Pauline
Member (Idle past 1815 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 62 of 142 (570750)
07-28-2010 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by crashfrog
07-28-2010 3:33 PM


But I have demonstrated them.

No, you haven't.

I've demonstrated them by asserting them.

Assertion is not equivalent to demonstration.

Is writing out the equation, Ca(OH)2 --> Ca2+ + 2OH- the same thing as performing the actual experiment?

I've self-authenticated my character.

You have made claims. You have not demonstrated the basis for those claims i.e substantiated your claims. There is no value to your self-authentication when you have provided nothing to authenticate in the first place. All you provided were two claims on paper. Nothing real or substantiate there.

Can you explain the logical basis by which you reject this claim?

I am continually explaning it. You keep ignoring it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 3:33 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 4:45 PM Pauline has responded
 Message 64 by PaulK, posted 07-28-2010 5:55 PM Pauline has responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 142 (570755)
07-28-2010 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Pauline
07-28-2010 4:07 PM


Assertion is not equivalent to demonstration.

From what logical basis do you conclude this? I am, after all, making the self-authenticated claim that assertion is equivalent to demonstration, when I do it. Because as we've established I'm an "ultimate authority."

You have not demonstrated the basis for those claims i.e substantiated your claims.

If I have to provide something other than my own claim, then I wouldn't be self-authenticated, now would I? I'd be authenticated by whatever else I had provided.

But that's not what I'm doing, here. I'm self-authenticating, not evidence-authenticating. Clearly, you reject this. I'm asking you what logical basis you reject my claim to self-authentication but accept self-authentication by Christians.

All you provided were two claims on paper.

Bibles are printed on paper, correct?

I am continually explaning it.

You're not explaining it at all. You're just repeating your rejection.

I get it. You don't think I can authenticate myself. I'm asking you the logical basis for why I can't but others can.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 4:07 PM Pauline has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:25 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 64 of 142 (570759)
07-28-2010 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Pauline
07-28-2010 4:07 PM


I get what you are saying. You claim that the Bible is a communication from God and that there is evidence in it that God actually is the ultimate authority.

But what is this evidence ? Because I've read that Bible thoroughly and never found anything that would really qualify.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 4:07 PM Pauline has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:11 PM PaulK has responded

    
Pauline
Member (Idle past 1815 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 65 of 142 (570800)
07-28-2010 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by PaulK
07-28-2010 5:55 PM


I get what you are saying. You claim that the Bible is a communication from God and that there is evidence in it that God actually is the ultimate authority.

But what is this evidence ? Because I've read that Bible thoroughly and never found anything that would really qualify.

The entire Bible is about God. God, throughout its pages, is portrayed as the Ultimate authority.

How can you read the Bible and also not agree that according to it, God is the ultimate authority? That's like asking if there is water in an ocean while standing on the beach and looking at it. That's plain unbelief. Do you not understand that God rules this universe when He claims to have created it? That He forgives sins? That He heals diseases? That He give prophecies that come true? That He fights battles for His people? That He performs miracles? That His character is like none other? That His wisdom is beyond human understanding? How can one ignore these, and many like them, and ask for more evidence?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by PaulK, posted 07-28-2010 5:55 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Coragyps, posted 07-28-2010 10:21 PM Pauline has not yet responded
 Message 68 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 10:26 PM Pauline has not yet responded
 Message 69 by bluescat48, posted 07-28-2010 10:28 PM Pauline has responded
 Message 70 by jar, posted 07-28-2010 10:40 PM Pauline has not yet responded
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2010 1:43 AM Pauline has not yet responded
 Message 84 by Stile, posted 07-29-2010 2:40 PM Pauline has responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 66 of 142 (570803)
07-28-2010 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Pauline
07-28-2010 10:11 PM


How can you read the Bible and also not agree that according to it, God is the ultimate authority?

See the italicized bit there, Pauline? I can agree with you just fine on that basis. I can also agree that Harry Potter is a pretty good wizard according to the books that talk about him, or that sandworms are dangerous according to Dune.

That doesn't mean that any of these agreements impinge on reality, though.


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:11 PM Pauline has not yet responded

    
Pauline
Member (Idle past 1815 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 67 of 142 (570805)
07-28-2010 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by crashfrog
07-28-2010 4:45 PM


From what logical basis do you conclude this? I am, after all, making the self-authenticated claim that assertion is equivalent to demonstration, when I do it. Because as we've established I'm an "ultimate authority.

We have not established that you are ultimate authority. You have claimed it, that's it. You have done nothing to prove it. All you've done is called yourself something, and called yourself something a second time. That second time, you think, is the self-authentication.

If I have to provide something other than my own claim, then I wouldn't be self-authenticated, now would I? I'd be authenticated by whatever else I had provided.

Wat do you mean by something other than my own claim? I'm asking you to lay out and demonstrate those character qualities that you think give you the right to be called an ultimate authority. If you are like the rest of us, we don't care.

But that's not what I'm doing, here. I'm self-authenticating, not evidence-authenticating. Clearly, you reject this. I'm asking you what logical basis you reject my claim to self-authentication but accept self-authentication by Christians.

No, you're not self authenticating. There is nothing to authenticate in the first place! There is no work you have done, no data that we can work with. First, please demonstrate those qualities that you claim to have as an ultimate authority. THEN, authenticate yourself by making your claim to authority. Based on our assessment of who you are- which in turn is based on your works, we will either accept or reject your self-authentication.

You're not explaining it at all. You're just repeating your rejection.

If you can lie so well, I'm not surprised you can misinterpret so well.

I get it. You don't think I can authenticate myself. I'm asking you the logical basis for why I can't but others can.

You've got nothing to authenticate. Zero. Which is why I asked you to substantiate your oral claims with real work. Step 1 is to demonstrate you character qualities. Step 2 is to reasonably claim authority because of those distinctly great qualities.

You refuse to do step 1.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 4:45 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

    
subbie
Member (Idle past 40 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 68 of 142 (570806)
07-28-2010 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Pauline
07-28-2010 10:11 PM


Yeah, that biblical god, great guy!

God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21)
God orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there, then orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3)
He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6)
He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her his wife. (Judges 21)
God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church. (2 Kings 10:18-27)

And that's just a few of the highlights. Yup, regular peacekeeper that Ywaheawhaehw. He's certainly an authority on cruelty, mayhem and murder.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:11 PM Pauline has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2269 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 69 of 142 (570807)
07-28-2010 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Pauline
07-28-2010 10:11 PM


How can you read the Bible and also not agree that according to it, God is the ultimate authority?

Easily when one sees that these are stories first told by bronze aged farmers who knew nothing of the earth, what's on it or what the universe was. They invented the higher authority from their imagination. That is why they could believe that the entire earth would be covered by 40 days of rain, and that all types of animals could fit on a small wooden boat to repopulate the earth. It shows that the God of Genesis 1, Genesis 2, and Exodus are portrayed differently. When people try to read the Bible through modern eyes they cannot see this only when read through the eyes of the story-tellers can one see the real Bible, that of myths, legends & lessons told by men who needed to know what was what but had no way of finding the answer.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:11 PM Pauline has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:51 PM bluescat48 has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 142 (570811)
07-28-2010 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Pauline
07-28-2010 10:11 PM


Pauline writes:

How can you read the Bible and also not agree that according to it, God is the ultimate authority?

How is that any different than what is in the Vedas?

How is that different than what is in the Völuspá?

How is that any different then what is in the "Book of the Dead"?

How is that any different than what is in Mahabharata?

How is that any different then what is in the Holy Qur'an?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:11 PM Pauline has not yet responded

  
Pauline
Member (Idle past 1815 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 71 of 142 (570813)
07-28-2010 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by bluescat48
07-28-2010 10:28 PM


coragyps writes:

See the italicized bit there, Pauline? I can agree with you just fine on that basis. I can also agree that Harry Potter is a pretty good wizard according to the books that talk about him, or that sandworms are dangerous according to Dune.

That doesn't mean that any of these agreements impinge on reality, though.

That would be fine, if the Bible was an equally fictitious books as the others mentioned. It isn't.

bluescat writes:

Easily when one sees that these are stories first told by bronze aged farmers who knew nothing of the earth, what's on it or what the universe was. They invented the higher authority from their imagination. That is why they could believe that the entire earth would be covered by 40 days of rain, and that all types of animals could fit on a small wooden boat to repopulate the earth. It shows that the God of Genesis 1, Genesis 2, and Exodus are portrayed differently. When people try to read the Bible through modern eyes they cannot see this only when read through the eyes of the story-tellers can one see the real Bible, that of myths, legends & lessons told by men who needed to know what was what but had no way of finding the answer.

Those "bronze age farmers" and other "illiterate writers" knew extraordinary things that you conveniently choose to ignore. Fulfilled prophecies. Extensive history. Science, without physical experimentation (refer to Job). Luke, a doctor is apparently a "bronze age farmer"? Paul, a thinker is a "bronze age farmer"? Moses, a highly educated Egyptian Prince is a "bronze age farmer"? Daniel is too? Isaiah? These bronze age farmers were a little too smart for their writings.

subbie writes:

Yeah, that biblical god, great guy!

God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21)
God orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there, then orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3)
He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6)
He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her his wife. (Judges 21)
God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church. (2 Kings 10:18-27)

And that's just a few of the highlights. Yup, regular peacekeeper that Ywaheawhaehw. He's certainly an authority on cruelty, mayhem and murder.

Yep. When God is the author of this universe He has every right to do everything He wants. No one except of their own folly dare question Him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by bluescat48, posted 07-28-2010 10:28 PM bluescat48 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 10:54 PM Pauline has responded
 Message 74 by jar, posted 07-28-2010 11:03 PM Pauline has not yet responded
 Message 75 by bluescat48, posted 07-29-2010 12:13 AM Pauline has not yet responded
 Message 77 by Huntard, posted 07-29-2010 4:05 AM Pauline has not yet responded
 Message 78 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-29-2010 5:51 AM Pauline has not yet responded
 Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 7:23 AM Pauline has not yet responded

    
subbie
Member (Idle past 40 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 72 of 142 (570814)
07-28-2010 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Pauline
07-28-2010 10:51 PM


Yep. When God is the author of this universe He has every right to do everything He wants. No one except of their own folly dare question Him.

And the fact that you find a sick fuck like that to be an ultimate authority on anything speaks volumes about what kind of a sick fuck you are yourself.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:51 PM Pauline has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 11:01 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
Pauline
Member (Idle past 1815 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 73 of 142 (570816)
07-28-2010 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by subbie
07-28-2010 10:54 PM


And the fact that you find a sick fuck like that to be an ultimate authority on anything speaks volumes about what kind of a sick fuck you are yourself.

Thank you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 10:54 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 74 of 142 (570818)
07-28-2010 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Pauline
07-28-2010 10:51 PM


Pauline writes:

That would be fine, if the Bible was an equally fictitious books as the others mentioned. It isn't.

And the evidence that the Bible is not fiction is...? You do understand that there is no such thing as "The Bible™" don't you?

Pauline writes:

Yep. When God is the author of this universe He has every right to do everything He wants. No one except of their own folly dare question Him.

And your evidence to support that is...?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:51 PM Pauline has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2269 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 75 of 142 (570825)
07-29-2010 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Pauline
07-28-2010 10:51 PM


Those "bronze age farmers" and other "illiterate writers" knew extraordinary things that you conveniently choose to ignore. Fulfilled prophecies. Extensive history. Science, without physical experimentation (refer to Job). Luke, a doctor is apparently a "bronze age farmer"? Paul, a thinker is a "bronze age farmer"? Moses, a highly educated Egyptian Prince is a "bronze age farmer"? Daniel is too? Isaiah? These bronze age farmers were a little too smart for their writings.

Show me evidence that any of the above individuals actually existed and if they did exist that any of the stories about them are real.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:51 PM Pauline has not yet responded

    
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