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Author Topic:   Bolder-dash's very own little thread
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 1880 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 76 of 109 (570706)
07-28-2010 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 11:00 AM


Natural selection
How can anyone claim this was a result of random mutations, that take years and years of trial and error to occur. Even some tried to claim that evolution can happen very rapidly even in complex organisms, and that this is also in keeping with your theory. Clearly they don't understand their own theory.

Selective pressures from the environment have an effect on the process of evolution. In an environment that is relatively stable with few pressures on the local population, we would expect to see little change in the populations evolution over time. Very large interbreeding populations also tend to mask or overwhelm any significant evolutionary changes. Likewise, small populations or populations that experience significant selection pressures tend toward rapid evolutionary changes.

When we discuss macro-evolution we do so with the underlying knowledge that we are dealing with tremendously large scales of time and many, many fluctuations in the Earths environment. Consequently we would expect that even small changes can accumulate and lead to an amazing diversity of life.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 11:00 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

subbie
Member (Idle past 65 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 77 of 109 (570724)
07-28-2010 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 10:54 AM


I am reserving judgment for you.

And I am reserving judgment until you provide a citation to some experiments supporting your position. The ball's in your court, Chuckles.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 10:54 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 109 (570727)
07-28-2010 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 10:54 AM


Thus I am giving up giving crashfrog lengthy answers until he demonstrates a deeper level of insight.

We're not dumb. You're "giving up on me" because I make points you can't refute and can barely understand (and frequently don't.)

You don't have the science background to interpret the vast majority of evidence being presented to you, you've made that obvious.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 10:54 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16333
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 79 of 109 (570739)
07-28-2010 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 10:54 AM


Bolder-dash writes:

Thus I am giving up giving crashfrog lengthy answers until he demonstrates a deeper level of insight.


You haven't been here long enough to know about my favourite joke: If you and I are being chased by a bear, I don't have to run faster than the bear. I only have to run faster than you.

Similarly, in order to school you in science, I don't have to know much science. I only have to know more than you.

At the moment, you're bear food. I'm miles ahead of you and crash is already sitting at home eating supper.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 10:54 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 6:26 PM ringo has responded

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 80 of 109 (570762)
07-28-2010 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
07-28-2010 2:27 PM


Do you mean like when I asked what a mutation for a tear duct looks like, and he said a mutation to a sebaceous gland, and I asked what change and to which sebaceous gland-just one in the corner of the eye, and he said um, um..nothing?

Is that when he schooled me?

I am so embarrassed to be schooled with such insight blustery.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 07-28-2010 2:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 6:43 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 82 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-28-2010 6:45 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-28-2010 6:52 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 84 by molbiogirl, posted 07-28-2010 7:01 PM Bolder-dash has responded
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 07-28-2010 7:12 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 109 (570767)
07-28-2010 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 6:26 PM


he said um, um..nothing?

Contrary to your lie, here, I think you'll find that I did reply, and that you have not addressed the reply.

It's actually you who had no comeback.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 6:26 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1206 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 82 of 109 (570768)
07-28-2010 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 6:26 PM


Do you mean like when I asked what a mutation for a tear duct looks like, and he said a mutation to a sebaceous gland, and I asked what change and to which sebaceous gland-just one in the corner of the eye, and he said um, um..nothing?

Ok, in all fairness, show me the evidence of God creating the suebaceous gland in the human body from nothing. Show me the emperical evidence of him doing this.

Chirp, chirp, chirp.

That is right, you can't. This is called an argument from ignorance. Just because we can't show every single mutation that has occurred in the human genome does not mean they do not exist. Science rests on the preponderance of emperical evidence that back up theories. In other words, there is enough evidence showing the mutational changes in the genome to indicate that biological evolution does occur even if we can not provide evidence of each and every genetic mutation (which would be literally uncountable).

Furthermore your statement that indicates that you think singular or even small numbers of mutations can create suebaceous glands indicate you know nothing about molecular and cellular biology, anatomy or biological evolution. Go read some academic books on these subjects and than come back if you have questions or want to challange the entire scientific community (which numbers in the tens of millions of academics and researchers who accept biological evolution as indicative of reality).

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 6:26 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 109 (570769)
07-28-2010 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 6:26 PM


Bolder-dash writes:

Do you mean like when I asked what a mutation for a tear duct looks like, and he said a mutation to a sebaceous gland, and I asked what change and to which sebaceous gland-just one in the corner of the eye, and he said um, um..nothing?

Is that when he schooled me?

I am so embarrassed to be schooled with such insight blustery.

You should be. You should be embarrassed to even ask such silly questions.

By definition a 'tear duct' would be near an eye, and so yes, it would near an eye.

But there does not even have to be tear ducts. There are many critters that don't have tear ducts.

You still seem to think that there is a goal, that tear ducts are needed and so tear ducts are made.

It don't happen like that.

BUT, what does happen is even neater.

The question you should have asked is "If there was a mutation to a sebaceous gland near an eye that kept the surface wet, would it have given that critter an advantage?"


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 6:26 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 746 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


(2)
Message 84 of 109 (570772)
07-28-2010 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 6:26 PM


Early tetrapods and tear ducts
One school of thought holds that the evolution of "air breathing" in early tetrapods led to the tear duct.

Breathing air in early tetrapods involved the choana, a structure connecting the external nostril to the inside of the mouth. The choana also had an opening that lead to the eye orbits via a small duct.

The choana is found only in osteolepiform lobe-fins and tetrapods. (The choana is also homologous with the primitive paired external nostrils that are still found in lampreys, sharks, Latimeria and ray-fins. These external nostrils are used for smelling in water and not for respiration.)

The duct leading to the orbits is comparable to the tear duct found in modern tetrapods. Similar secretions may have enabled certain lobe-fin fishes to operate near or at the waterís surface.

Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 6:26 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-29-2010 1:39 AM molbiogirl has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16333
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 85 of 109 (570776)
07-28-2010 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 6:26 PM


Bolder=dash writes:

Do you mean like when I asked what a mutation for a tear duct looks like, and he said a mutation to a sebaceous gland, and I asked what change and to which sebaceous gland-just one in the corner of the eye, and he said um, um..nothing?
Is that when he schooled me?


Yes, that's one example. He explained what your fundamental misunderstanding was.

You're no where near a level of understanding where you can criticize anything. You're like a little kid who can just about recite the alphabet and you're telling Shakespeare he did it wrong.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 6:26 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 86 of 109 (570829)
07-29-2010 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by molbiogirl
07-28-2010 7:01 PM


Re: Early tetrapods and tear ducts
No, molbiogirl, that can't be-because the zoology professional crashfrog has already assured us that it was a mutation to a sebaceous gland (but just to one sebaceous gland oddly enough).

I mean, are you going to try and tell Shakespeare he is wrong, with just the tools of the alphabet? Come on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by molbiogirl, posted 07-28-2010 7:01 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by articulett, posted 07-29-2010 4:06 AM Bolder-dash has responded
 Message 89 by molbiogirl, posted 07-29-2010 10:33 AM Bolder-dash has responded

articulett
Member (Idle past 1476 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


(2)
Message 87 of 109 (570835)
07-29-2010 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Bolder-dash
07-29-2010 1:39 AM


Re: Early tetrapods and tear ducts
When mutations happen on bilateral structures, they happen bilaterally. Haven't you ever seen anyone with the second and third toe fused. It will happen on both sides. You do realize that all the cells in the body come from the same cell with the same mutations, right? The mutation for blue eyes makes both eyes blue.

The mutation that causes the most common forms of dwarfism affects the long bones of the arms and legs. All of them. It's not one limb affected per mutation. In affects all the place where collagen should grow and then turn to bone. A single change messes up the whole program and you end up with dwarfism.

I think you are way, way, way out of your league here.

If your questions aren't answered in the manner you asked, it might be because no one realized how very ignorant you are on the subject.

If you have a mutation for red hair... it doesn't just make one hair have red pigment! And yet your tear duct question seems to be on par with the red hair example. I think you need to start at the very beginning and start getting your science from scientists rather than self-appointed experts in undetectable realms. You have some very knowledgeable people here who will give you lessons tailor made for you, but in order to understand them, you'll need to quit imagining you know more than them already.

Edited by articulett, : provide further examples.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-29-2010 1:39 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-29-2010 7:13 AM articulett has not yet responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 88 of 109 (570848)
07-29-2010 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by articulett
07-29-2010 4:06 AM


Re: Early tetrapods and tear ducts
Haha, thank you for making the point of how silly it was for crashfrog to say that it was a mutation to a sebaceous gland that caused the formation of a tear duct. Its unfortunate that this irony has escaped you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by articulett, posted 07-29-2010 4:06 AM articulett has not yet responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 746 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 89 of 109 (570890)
07-29-2010 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Bolder-dash
07-29-2010 1:39 AM


Re: Early tetrapods and tear ducts
Ancestral glands are usually assumed to have produced a copious watery secretion which moistened the cornea and provided protection against potential microbial pathogens.

These glands were evolutionarily derived from sebaceous cells, just as crash said.

The duct itself was formed by the bones of the skull.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-29-2010 1:39 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-29-2010 10:39 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded
 Message 91 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-29-2010 10:49 AM molbiogirl has responded

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 90 of 109 (570894)
07-29-2010 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by molbiogirl
07-29-2010 10:33 AM


Re: Early tetrapods and tear ducts
Why wold you need a duct, if you already had a gland providing all the secretions necessary?

And are you further trying to say that a mutation to a sebaceous gland created a tear duct? Because that is exactly what crashfrog said, and you are agreeing that he was correct. Make up your mind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by molbiogirl, posted 07-29-2010 10:33 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded

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