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Author Topic:   God created evolution
kanedotca
Junior Member (Idle past 4983 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 08-05-2010


Message 1 of 118 (572284)
08-05-2010 7:20 AM


I have sought out this forum because i had a thought last night that has been eating at me and wondered if anyone else has ever proposed this.
Is evolution a part of creation?
Science is quickly proving that evolution is true. A few hundred years ago science proved that the world is round. This went against everything historically believed and was integrated into common belief without changing the teachings of any religion. Will evolution be integrated the same way?
Let me propose the thought that god is growing and thus had to grow from something lesser to become the being capable of creating what we see around us. This leads us to the thought that an immature or inexperienced god could have created our planet in its most primitive form. This showing that creation is true but happened billions of years before our understanding. Now this childlike god continued with creation in an orderly form and continued to practice, as a any professional begins with tiny menial tasks in their trade to learn the more complex works that they will later be known for. In the time that it took for the earth to cool and life to spring forth and pass through it’s ages, our god was able to learn and mature.
Creationism tells us that the world was created in a short period of time only a short time ago. This statement on its own cannot be true, however we may simple be interpreting it poorly. What if consciousness, souls, self awareness and intelligence were created as creationism states and they were a product of god’s studies in evolution.
Am I on the right track? Could this theory be the balance that can find harmony between these two passionate sides of a needless argument?

Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 118 (572292)
08-05-2010 8:15 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the God created evolution thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 3 of 118 (572294)
08-05-2010 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kanedotca
08-05-2010 7:20 AM


Hello kanedotca and welcome to EvC!
kanedotca writes:
I have sought out this forum because i had a thought last night that has been eating at me and wondered if anyone else has ever proposed this.
This is a good place to learn, so I'd say you chose wisely.
Is evolution a part of creation?
Yes, this has been proposed before, it's called Theistic evolution
Science is quickly proving that evolution is true. A few hundred years ago science proved that the world is round. This went against everything historically believed and was integrated into common belief without changing the teachings of any religion. Will evolution be integrated the same way?
In many denominations, it already has, i.e. Catholicism.
Creationism tells us that the world was created in a short period of time only a short time ago. This statement on its own cannot be true, however we may simple be interpreting it poorly. What if consciousness, souls, self awareness and intelligence were created as creationism states and they were a product of god’s studies in evolution.
And what if not? Are there souls to begin with? Are the other things you mention something seperate from the mind/brain?
Am I on the right track? Could this theory be the balance that can find harmony between these two passionate sides of a needless argument?
Well, since the idea (theistic evlution) has been around for some while, and the creationists still reject it, I don't think you're gonna have anymore luck than anyone else. But hey, the try is nice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kanedotca, posted 08-05-2010 7:20 AM kanedotca has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 4 of 118 (572301)
08-05-2010 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kanedotca
08-05-2010 7:20 AM


That's all well and good but it turns the idea that Yahweh is omniscient and omnipotent on it's head. If ToE and evolution are part of a reality made by Yahweh then he must have known exactly what he was doing and how it would turn out from the get go.
Any thing else and you would be redefining your concept of Yahweh to fit in with science.
Not very devout.
Welcome to EvC.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 118 (572304)
08-05-2010 8:56 AM


Welcome home.
What you propose is actually pretty well accepted in much of Christianity. As mentioned, it would be one of the flavors of Theistic Evolution. Many branches of Christianity have no problems what so ever with Evolution and in fact, Christians have been very active in the fight against teaching Creationism and Intelligent Design.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 6 of 118 (572358)
08-05-2010 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kanedotca
08-05-2010 7:20 AM


Hi, Kanedotca.
Welcome to EvC!
kanedotca writes:
Could this theory be the balance that can find harmony between these two passionate sides of a needless argument?
I don't think it could. It flies in the face of what both sides propose, so it isn't going to do much harmonizing.
Creationists will say that it contradicts the Bible, and thus, can't be accurate.
Evolutionists will say that there is no physical evidence for it, and thus, it can't be considered yet.
But, as others have said, it has kind of caught on with people who are terminally indecisive and non=commital (myself included).
Edited by Bluejay, : "caught on"

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 7 of 118 (572363)
08-05-2010 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kanedotca
08-05-2010 7:20 AM


kanedotca writes:
Could this theory be the balance that can find harmony between these two passionate sides of a needless argument?
I don't think so. The major thrust of creationism is anti-science. Even if scientists could detect God and confirm that He was the Creator, creationists would probably still reject science. They want to believe that their "special voodoo powers" are superior to going out and doing the work. They want to go straight to the answers in the back of the book instead of putting any effort into understanding.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 8 of 118 (572406)
08-05-2010 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by kanedotca
08-05-2010 7:20 AM


Could this theory be the balance that can find harmony between these two passionate sides of a needless argument?
Not until a small minority of irrational fools abandon the completely discredited idea that every word in the bible is the literal truth. But as soon as that happens, yeah.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kanedotca, posted 08-05-2010 7:20 AM kanedotca has not replied

  
kanedotca
Junior Member (Idle past 4983 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 08-05-2010


Message 9 of 118 (572457)
08-05-2010 11:25 PM


alright so... this forum is fantastic
the replies are great and all negative responses were acompanied with valid arguments and no flaming was involved.
thank you for the links and the opinions, i will look into this more here and elsewhere

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 10 of 118 (572494)
08-06-2010 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kanedotca
08-05-2010 7:20 AM


Hi kanedotca
Let me propose the thought that.....god continued with creation in an orderly form and continued to practice.....In the time that it took for the earth to cool and life to spring forth and pass through it’s ages, our god was able to learn and mature.
Evolution through natural selection is an unguided process. All the evidence points to this.
There is no evidence at all that any intelligent entity had any involvement in evolution (certainly no deliberate involvement until humans started such things as breeding animals and genetic engineering).
If there were any evidence that indicated the involvement of an intelligent entity, then you may start to have a case. But you'd then have to define what this "god" is, and provide a link between "god" and evolution, for your proposal to make any sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kanedotca, posted 08-05-2010 7:20 AM kanedotca has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by GDR, posted 08-06-2010 8:03 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 11 of 118 (572617)
08-06-2010 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
08-06-2010 7:45 AM


JUC writes:
Evolution through natural selection is an unguided process. All the evidence points to this.
What evidence is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 08-06-2010 7:45 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Larni, posted 08-07-2010 4:57 AM GDR has replied
 Message 23 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 08-08-2010 10:08 AM GDR has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 12 of 118 (572695)
08-07-2010 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by GDR
08-06-2010 8:03 PM


The fact that species become extinct is pretty compelling evidence that evolution is not guided.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 13 of 118 (572726)
08-07-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Larni
08-07-2010 4:57 AM


Larni writes:
The fact that species become extinct is pretty compelling evidence that evolution is not guided.
How is that? We have evolved from single celled creatures. (Wonder what those single celled creatures evolved from? ) Some where along the line as one species evolved into other species in a designed or guided plan, it would make sense to me that some would disappear along the way.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 118 (572729)
08-07-2010 10:49 AM


On the Bandar-Log
The problem with thinking that God created evolution comes up when we make the mistake of believing that some particular critter, man as an example, is a desired outcome.
If we set as an a priori condition that God created evolution then the evidence says that no particular critter was a desired outcome, rather the desired outcome was simply life continuing. Based on the evidence available to us, to think that humans are something special, some specific desired outcome, either indicates severe limits on the God (if humans were the desired outcome why spend billions of years on prototypes) or a hubris much like the Bandar-Log.
quote:

Road-Song of the Bandar-Log

Here we go in a flung festoon,
Half-way up to the jealous moon!
Don't you envy our pranceful bands?
Don't you wish you had extra hands?
Wouldn't you like if your tails were--so--
Curved in the shape of a Cupid's bow?
Now you're angry, but--never mind,
Brother, thy tail hangs down behind!
Here we sit in a branchy row,
Thinking of beautiful things we know;
Dreaming of deeds that we mean to do,
All complete, in a minute or two--
Something noble and wise and good,
Done by merely wishing we could.
We've forgotten, but--never mind,
Brother, thy tail hangs down behind!
All the talk we ever have heard
Uttered by bat or beast or bird--
Hide or fin or scale or feather--
Jabber it quickly and all together!
Excellent! Wonderful! Once again!
Now we are talking just like men!
Let's pretend we are ... never mind,
Brother, thy tail hangs down behind!
This is the way of the Monkey-kind.
Then join our leaping lines that scumfish through the pines,
That rocket by where, light and high, the wild grape swings.
By the rubbish in our wake, and the noble noise we make,
Be sure, be sure, we're going to do some splendid things!

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Taz, posted 08-07-2010 10:59 AM jar has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 15 of 118 (572734)
08-07-2010 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kanedotca
08-05-2010 7:20 AM


kanedotca writes:
Let me propose the thought that god is growing and thus had to grow from something lesser to become the being capable of creating what we see around us. This leads us to the thought that an immature or inexperienced god could have created our planet in its most primitive form. This showing that creation is true but happened billions of years before our understanding. Now this childlike god continued with creation in an orderly form and continued to practice, as a any professional begins with tiny menial tasks in their trade to learn the more complex works that they will later be known for. In the time that it took for the earth to cool and life to spring forth and pass through it’s ages, our god was able to learn and mature.
Hey kane, welcome to this little corner of a series of tubes.
A long long time ago, I suggested this very thing, that if we psychoanalyze god based on the events in the bible, there is no doubt that while man was growing so was god.
Before the events of genesis, there was nothing but the presence of god. How could any intelligent being develop mentally being all alone? It couldn't. And so, the god that created the universe and every animal on earth was a child.
God separated the light from the dark. Any parent would tell you that one of the first things when a baby play with his toys is make patterns based on his own thought of what his toys should look like. God created every animal on earth and proceeded to name each one of them. Again, any parent would tell you that this is a very child-like act. Children like to put a name on things. god then felt lonely and created Adam. A young child will eventually seek out a friend.
Now, here comes the immature part. Adam went against god's wishes with the forbidden fruit and god literally threw a temper tandrum.
If anyone here is old enough to remember the old twilight zone series, there was an episode where a 8 year old kid had the power to do anything he wanted. Every adult around him had to keep him happy all the time or else. This episode explored the scenario of what would happen if omnipotence falls in the hands of a child. And that's exactly what we see happened in the bible.
Casting Adam and Eve out wasn't the only temper tandrum that god had. When man didn't turn out to be what god wanted, he sent a flood and wiped out everything. Only a child with immature moral base could do something like this.
Anyone here ever had an ant farm? Well, I never had an ant farm, but I had something better. I had a tertarium where I'd catch insects and put them in there as a child. I used to spend hours looking at their behavior in my glas box, how they interacted with each other and the food I put in. Sometimes, I dug tunnels for them. Sometimes, I put houses in there for them.
The point is that's exactly what happens in the old testament. As if the whole world was a tertarium and god was a child trying out different things with its creation.
I just find it curious that as the old testament progressed, the less temper tandrum god had. In fact, when we got to the new testament, there was no temper tandrum. And now in modern times, we don't see god interacting with us at all. Did god finally grow up?
So, that's my rambling for the day. Enjoy this very new idea. Who knows, I might start a religion out of this idea and make millions in the process.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kanedotca, posted 08-05-2010 7:20 AM kanedotca has not replied

  
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