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Author Topic:   Has The Supernatural Hypothesis Failed?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 4 of 549 (572486)
08-06-2010 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
08-05-2010 2:38 PM


Re: Has The Supernatural Hypothesis Failed?
So what is the supernatural hypothesis?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 08-05-2010 2:38 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 08-06-2010 8:23 AM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 198 of 549 (577188)
08-27-2010 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Straggler
08-27-2010 11:51 AM


Human Imagination
quote:
I am certainly not assuming such things do exist (I don’t personally think that they do). But unless I know for certain that they are impossible they remain a possibility. Right?
Only in our imagination. We can imagine beyond our reality, but that doesn't mean that everything we imagine is possible or probable. "Anything is possible" is a nice catch phrase for encouragement.
quote:
Do you accept that the actual existence of this Christ entity as described above is a possibility?
Not outside of the human imagination and the medium used to communicate those thoughts.
quote:
The term supernatural is an adjective that is no more conceptually meaningless than words like useful or impossible. The fact such terms can be applied both erroneously and subjectively does not detract from the fact that they have conceptual meaning in and of themselves.
The concept exists in the human mind. It doesn't describe something that was seen in the real world. It describes something that was seen in the human imagination.

The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Straggler, posted 08-27-2010 11:51 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Straggler, posted 08-28-2010 5:58 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 204 of 549 (577362)
08-28-2010 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Straggler
08-28-2010 5:58 AM


Re: Human Imagination
quote:
How can you know this with such absolute certainty?
Because the human imagination can imagine impossible things. The imagination is amazing and still mysterious.
From Message 197:
Straggler writes:
The Christian conception of Christ is as a genuinely divine and miraculous being. Born of a virgin not by some quirk of biology not yet discovered but simply by the will of biblical Yahweh. This Christ being is neither derived from nor subject to any laws of nature and can perform acts which are inherently inexplicable in any material terms (i.e. miracles).
Jesus was subject to the laws of nature. He grew in the womb for the normal period of time, he was fed and trained as any other child. He grew as any other child. He consumed food and drink, he bled when injured, and he died.
Have you ever noticed that we tend to make sure our supposedly supernatural beings can't "take us out" or "take over"? Achilles heal so to speak. There is always something to limit their interaction or take over.
Given the supposed character of Jesus and his goal to get people to stop sinning, there's nothing stopping him from returning in physical form and continuing to teach in each new era if he is truly not bound by the laws of nature.
In reality he's bound by the imagination of man.
Exaggeration is a part of story telling. Natural results can be exaggerated into miracles. The stories of the miracles were written over 40 years later. Miracles can be added to aid in the point of the story.
When someone writes of a miracle how can anyone explain them in material terms? It's a writing, there isn't any "material" to investigate.
Supposedly Buddha's ability to walk on water was due to intense training in meditation. Buddhism and Miracles
So walking on water isn't considered impossible for humans by Buddhists.
Walking on Water - Christ and Buddha
Buddha is not considered a supernatural being by his followers.
quote:
What I dispute is your degree of certainty.
I've witnessed man's imagination at work.
Two people, at the same time, experience an encounter with a store clerk. One depicts the encounter as uneventful and the other depicts a rude and obstructive clerk. I've viewed this type of situation many times. Some people like to embellish.
Our minds can imagine things that are "contrary to the known laws of nature". But IMO, even those imaginings are inspired by what we have seen and what mankind wishes to do.
We see birds flying.
Water bugs walking on water.
Fish swimming underwater.
Hummingbirds and dragonflies hover.
We are inspired by the real world around us.
Some are never satisfied with what is and imagine more.
As long as these beings are bound by human imagination, it isn't possible for them to exist in reality. If they existed in reality, imagination isn't necessary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Straggler, posted 08-28-2010 5:58 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2010 5:15 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 207 of 549 (577633)
08-29-2010 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Straggler
08-29-2010 5:15 PM


Re: Human Imagination
quote:
Can any amount of evidence favouring a concept as the product of human imagination ever demonstrate that something is impossible?
Concepts start in the mind. The evidence would need to show that the concept is possible outside the mind. Is there anything in the real world today that goes against the known laws of nature?
What real action today has caused science to search for the type of being you described in Message 197?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2010 5:15 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Straggler, posted 08-31-2010 7:18 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 211 of 549 (577966)
08-31-2010 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Straggler
08-31-2010 7:18 AM


Re: Human Imagination
quote:
But that doesn't make it an impossibility. Which is what you have claimed. Even Dawkins and the like only go so far as to say such things are "deeply improbable". And that is where I stand too. For good philosophical reasons declarations of absolute certainty are unjustified.
Philosophical mind games. For a scientist well known or otherwise to make an absolute statement, I agree.
For me personally, I have no problem making an absolute statement concerning the description you gave in Message 97. Throw out imagination and mind games? With imagination anything is possible. In reality, not everything is possible.
Someone having an ability that I don't have doesn't make it an ability that is outside the realm of nature or mean that they are breaking the laws of nature.
The mind is one place we don't necessarily know all the "laws", but we are still part of nature. So what ever goes on in the mind is still part of nature.
From what I've read in the Bible and the writings from the early Church fathers, I have no problem saying that it was and is impossible for the type of being you described in Message 197 (a person not subject to the laws of nature) to exist outside of our imagination.
In our imagination, it is possible, but in reality, no.
quote:
The point being - That if the term "supernatural" has common conceptual meaning and refers to something that (no matter how improbable) might exist it cannot be accurately described as "meaningless" or "nothing".
I'm not sure of your whole "nothing" issue with onifire.
Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Straggler, posted 08-31-2010 7:18 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Straggler, posted 08-31-2010 8:52 AM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

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