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Author Topic:   Evolution would've given us infrared eyesight
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 265 (501035)
03-03-2009 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Coyote
03-03-2009 7:03 PM


Re: Implication Of Intelligent Design
Coyote writes:

Selection pressure is what gives you the changes for the next roll of the dice.

1. Yes, I understand that about NS. However my contention was that during the relatively long primitive era until the organism advances to the point that there is in it a pressure mechanism such as memory data and reproduction what is the source of NS pressure?

2. With the dice the number of options and the design of the dice are fixed by the designer of the dice so as to insure success. This would not be the case in the primitive era of evolution. Imo, the analogy cheats. What is scientific about that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Coyote, posted 03-03-2009 7:03 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 265 (501039)
03-03-2009 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Straggler
03-03-2009 6:51 PM


Re: Implication Of Intelligent Design
Straggler writes:

Buz - The dice model is an anology for selection not intelligence.

Surely after all these years you have grasped that much.......?

LOL. The model is rigged by the designer of the model to insure the designer's result, i.e. certain success (abe: for modeling early evolution.} In reality during the primitive genesis of evolution the required mix for the (abe: roll/continuity of the organism) )would be almost impossible, unlike the measly 25 dice model. Success would be neigh unto impossible, if not impossible.

Edited by Buzsaw, : clarify


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2009 6:51 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Stagamancer, posted 03-03-2009 9:05 PM Buzsaw has responded

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 198 of 265 (501041)
03-03-2009 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Buzsaw
03-03-2009 4:51 PM


Re: Implication Of Intelligent Design
Hi, Buzz.

Buzsaw writes:

a. The dice are intelligently designed cubes with symmetric dimensions so as for all available options to have an equal chance of coming up.

b. The dice each have only six possibilities as intelligently determined.

c. Intelligent design of the designer of the dice and the work of the intelligent dice thrower/manager is needed to throw the dice, to
save the sixes up for the next throw and to determine how many dice to throw for each round.

d. The number of options are predetermined and set by the intelligent manager of the dice.

What you have done here is what Taz refers to as "quibbling the analogy."

The purpose of an analogy is to make a concept easier to understand. Thus, an analogy is necessarily simpler and less complete than the concept it is trying to explain.

For instance, Jesus compared the kingdom of heaven to a pearl of great price (Matthew 13:46 "something of great value" in NIV, I think), and said that a man sold all his possessions to buy the pearl. Obviously, a man can't buy his way into heaven, so the analogy is flawed.

Yet, the analogy is successful in conveying it's intended purpose.

-----

The dice example is a very good analogy for evolution, because it is simpler than the concept it's trying to explain and the metaphor is familiar to the audience (everybody knows that dice symbolize "chance" or "probability").

The point of the dice analogy is simply that evolution has a random component (represented with a dice toss; nevermind the exact odds given), and a directed component (keeping the 6's after each toss).

That is the only point the analogy is meant to get across.


-Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Buzsaw, posted 03-03-2009 4:51 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Buzsaw, posted 03-03-2009 8:53 PM Blue Jay has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 265 (501045)
03-03-2009 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Blue Jay
03-03-2009 8:28 PM


Re: Implication Of Intelligent Design
Bluejay writes:

The point of the dice analogy is simply that evolution has a random component (represented with a dice toss; nevermind the exact odds given), and a directed component (keeping the 6's after each toss).

That is the only point the analogy is meant to get across.

Hi Bluejay.

But what is ultimately random by keeping the sixes and getting umteen throws for the sure win? That's no game of chance. It would be laughable at Vegas to call it chance.

Nobody has addressed my points relative to the primitive abiogenesis and the early (abe; evolution) era of the first living organism/s. With the dice that's no problem at all. The dice model models only if there is a NS memory facility in the organism to effect selection because with the dice there is something/someone to save the sixes for success.

There would not be in place anything or anyone in the first organism/s to naturally select so as to propagate the continuity of the organism before it's death.

Edited by Buzsaw, : Add "evolution" as indicated


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Blue Jay, posted 03-03-2009 8:28 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Blue Jay, posted 03-03-2009 10:10 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 202 by Modulous, posted 03-03-2009 10:17 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 200 of 265 (501046)
03-03-2009 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Buzsaw
03-03-2009 8:21 PM


Re: Implication Of Intelligent Design
In reality during the primitive genesis of evolution the required mix for the (abe: roll/continuity of the organism) )would be almost impossible, unlike the measly 25 dice model. Success would be neigh unto impossible, if not impossible.

Here it is again, that blasted "it's too improbable" argument.

I'm just going to give you a frame a reference for the kinds of numbers we're looking at here, since that is clearly lacking in your argument.

Yes, you're right, in reality we're dealing with more options that 6 or 25 (which doesn't mean the analogy is wrong). For example, I work with bacteriophage (viruses that infect bacteria). Now, we can determine, roughly, the number of phage present in a solution by plating them on lawns of bacteria. The phage, when they reproduce, lyse the bacterial cells making a clearing in the lawn. The number of clearings (plaques) can be used to determine the original number of plaque forming units (bacteriophage) in the solution. You can then take a plug from the middle of a plaque, suspend the phage in solution and plate that again to determine the number of phage in one plaque. Now, on average for phages ID11 and PhiX, in one plaque no more than 1/2 a centimeter across, we regularly find numbers of phage to the order of 10^10. (That's 10 to the power of 10, or 10,000,000,000) That's one plaque. Now imagine there are 100 plaques, so that's 10^12 phage. So even if the chance of getting a beneficial mutation is 1 in a billion (10^9) That's still 1000 phage on average that get that mutation. And that's only on one plate! IN ONE GENERATION! I assure you, given the billions of years life has had on the planet, the rolling of dice has been sufficient enough to provide the mutations required for complex life.


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Buzsaw, posted 03-03-2009 8:21 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Buzsaw, posted 03-03-2009 11:17 PM Stagamancer has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 201 of 265 (501052)
03-03-2009 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Buzsaw
03-03-2009 8:53 PM


Re: Implication Of Intelligent Design
Hi, Buzsaw.

Buzsaw writes:

But what is ultimately random by keeping the sixes and getting umteen throws for the sure win? That's no game of chance. It would be laughable at Vegas to call it chance.

Is it not also laughable at to call salvation "buying one's way into heaven"? Yet, strangely enough, that's exactly what Jesus said semantically.

An understanding of the term "symbolism" is essential for an understanding of the meaning of analogies.


-Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Buzsaw, posted 03-03-2009 8:53 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 211 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 202 of 265 (501053)
03-03-2009 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Buzsaw
03-03-2009 8:53 PM


Dicey proposition
The dice model models only if there is a NS memory facility in the organism to effect selection because with the dice there is something/someone to save the sixes for success.

Like some kind of 'diceome' where child rolls inherit their parent's diceomes.

If only there were some kind analogy in biology that 'saves' successful genetic mutations and some kind of way that insures that the mixes that are better at reproducing are the ones whose 'saved genes' get passed on to their children.

The thing with analogies is that if you aren't careful, you'll miss the point. We could create an analogy that was closer to the real thing, but the analogy would get more and more complicated until we might as well do away with it. Once everyone agrees that cumulative selection can do interesting things, we could just discard the dice analogy altogether. Or...

...maybe we could have a population of piles of dice, and each pile of dice replicates but those piles of dice with more sixes in them get to create more children than those with fewer and each replication introduces a random roll to one of the die in each pile and...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Buzsaw, posted 03-03-2009 8:53 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 265 (501061)
03-03-2009 11:05 PM


Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
I appreciate the responses but is anyone going to go head on with the problem I've been raising relative to the absence of some replicating mechanism in the post abiogenesis primitive genesis era of the first evolutionary life organism/s?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by lyx2no, posted 03-03-2009 11:32 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 206 by Percy, posted 03-04-2009 7:56 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 265 (501062)
03-03-2009 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Stagamancer
03-03-2009 9:05 PM


Re: Implication Of Intelligent Design
Stagamancer writes:

IN ONE GENERATION! I assure you, given the billions of years life has had on the planet, the rolling of dice has been sufficient enough to provide the mutations required for complex life.

Hi Stagamancer. A hearty welcome to EvC. We hope to see more of you.

Thanks for weighing in here with your interesting and informative message. However, here again, as I understand your work, these are advanced organisms which can replicate readily which you work with.

Do you understand the problem which I have reiterated in my last message? What do you think?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Stagamancer, posted 03-03-2009 9:05 PM Stagamancer has not yet responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2823 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 205 of 265 (501063)
03-03-2009 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Buzsaw
03-03-2009 11:05 PM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
I appreciate the responses but is anyone going to go head on with the problem I've been raising relative to the absence of some replicating mechanism in the post abiogenesis primitive genesis era of the first evolutionary life organism/s?

All that would be necessary would be for a self-catalyzing molecule to come into existents that would be hardy enough to survive its environment. After that any miscopy would be either more or less robust. The more robust would make more copies then the less robust: keeping the sixes as it were.

The selection pressure existed long before that molecule came into existence in the form of temperature, salinity, pH levels and a million other things that are more harmful to some versions of the autocatalyst then others.

There is no problem to confront. Mutation and selection existed long before anything that could be called life did.


Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Buzsaw, posted 03-03-2009 11:05 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Stagamancer, posted 03-04-2009 3:14 PM lyx2no has not yet responded
 Message 210 by Buzsaw, posted 03-04-2009 11:51 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 18370
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 206 of 265 (501090)
03-04-2009 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Buzsaw
03-03-2009 11:05 PM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
Hi Buz,

The roll of a die is the random component. It represents a random mutation, which is the most fundamental cause of descent with modification.

Keeping any die that comes up 6 is the non-random component. This represents selection, which is life interacting with its environment to either reproduce, or not.

Since evolution is descent with modification combined with natural selection, the dice analogy is an effective analogy for evolution.

However, I don't think this is an effective analogy for you, and I don't think there's any analogy that would work for you. You seem baffled by the fact that, just like the dice analogy, evolution has both a random and a non-random component. We should probably find another way of making evolution clear for you, but one doesn't come to mind just now.

I wonder if the problem for you in understanding evolution is that every time you get close to grasping it you realize that it makes sense and would work, and since you know in your heart that evolution is impossible you conclude that that interpretation must be wrong, and you then continue your search for an interpretation of evolution that has obvious problems. And every time you do that everyone tells you the same thing: you don't understand evolution.

There's no point criticizing an erroneous interpretation of evolution that no scientist accepts. You're pounding on the wrong nail.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Buzsaw, posted 03-03-2009 11:05 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 207 of 265 (501131)
03-04-2009 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by lyx2no
03-03-2009 11:32 PM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
All that would be necessary would be for a self-catalyzing molecule to come into existents that would be hardy enough to survive its environment. After that any miscopy would be either more or less robust. The more robust would make more copies then the less robust: keeping the sixes as it were.

The selection pressure existed long before that molecule came into existence in the form of temperature, salinity, pH levels and a million other things that are more harmful to some versions of the autocatalyst then others.

There is no problem to confront. Mutation and selection existed long before anything that could be called life did.

This is an excellent point. And may I add that we've found a molecule that can both contain genetic data and catalyze: RNA. Which is the whole basis for the RNA-world hypotheses/theory.

Buzsaw:
My point in using the bacteriophage was that phage are the simplest form of "life" we know. In fact they're so simple, many do not even classify them as life, yet they evolve. Their genetic information is just a subject to natural selection as yours. Also, being more simplistic, they are more of them. Many, many, many, many more. So, one could infer that the numbers of possibly self-replicating molecules, even at the beginning, would be even higher.


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by lyx2no, posted 03-03-2009 11:32 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Buzsaw, posted 03-04-2009 11:42 PM Stagamancer has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 265 (501187)
03-04-2009 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Stagamancer
03-04-2009 3:14 PM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
Stagamancer writes:

Buzsaw:
My point in using the bacteriophage was that phage are the simplest form of "life" we know. In fact they're so simple, many do not even classify them as life, yet they evolve. Their genetic information is just a subject to natural selection as yours. Also, being more simplistic, they are more of them. Many, many, many, many more. So, one could infer that the numbers of possibly self-replicating molecules, even at the beginning, would be even higher.

Thank you, Stagamancer. Now, you say these bacteriophage have evolved and have genetic information.

1. They evolved the genetic information. Correct?

2. Aren't we back to square one as to how first organisms replicated their kind before genetic information evolved into the first organism/s?

With the dice analogy the person shaking the dice saves the sixes/kind for the next throw/generation. With the first organisms they're on their own random lonely selfy and must replicate before they die. :eek: LOL!


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Stagamancer, posted 03-04-2009 3:14 PM Stagamancer has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Coyote, posted 03-04-2009 11:46 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 215 by Stagamancer, posted 03-05-2009 3:48 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 213 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 209 of 265 (501188)
03-04-2009 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Buzsaw
03-04-2009 11:42 PM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
With the dice analogy the person shaking the dice saves the sixes/kind for the next throw/generation. With the first organisms they're on their own random lonely selfy and must replicate before they die. LOL!

Or not! That's they key!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Buzsaw, posted 03-04-2009 11:42 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Buzsaw, posted 03-04-2009 11:53 PM Coyote has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 265 (501189)
03-04-2009 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by lyx2no
03-03-2009 11:32 PM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
lyx2no writes:

There is no problem to confront. Mutation and selection existed long before anything that could be called life did.

Thanks, lyx2no. Could you cite a link where I could read up on this? If there was selection, was there replication and saved information? Did the molecules have a survival period as to how long they existed, etc?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by lyx2no, posted 03-03-2009 11:32 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

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