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Author Topic:   Evolution would've given us infrared eyesight
OLEGDEI
Member (Idle past 3280 days)
Posts: 10
Joined: 01-03-2010


Message 241 of 265 (541899)
01-06-2010 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by RAZD
01-06-2010 2:55 AM


Re: topic
What many Christian bloggers do not seem to understand is the Scientific Theory of Evolution! This is especially true with the Hillbillies in the South and Midwest who have sex with their mothers regularly in the name of Jesus! Instead of sitting down and reading several good books on the subject and augmenting that with several good courses in college, the Lizard People with their Reptilian Brains keep vomiting up the same stupid fundamentalist questions or crap!
It is beyond the scope of a few witty answers to educate these sub humanoids who threaten our existence! Many have been brainwashed into insanity by their Religion so nothing may work! For those that have half a brain left, study the subject thoroughly and stop giving into insanity or the dark side. Remember Anakin Skywalker. You can visit our website WWW.SCIENCECLUBOFLONGISLAND.COM and study evolution. We also expose the Bible for what it is an evil book of lies and contradictions. Remember the Bible was written by fools who thought the world was flat and the Sun revolved the Earth. We got rid of this Christian Crap and now we must rid ourselves of the God Crap!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2010 2:55 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2010 6:55 PM OLEGDEI has not yet responded
 Message 245 by Admin, posted 01-06-2010 7:04 PM OLEGDEI has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19815
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 242 of 265 (541905)
01-06-2010 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by hooah212002
01-06-2010 8:09 AM


tips
Where do we find that number?

In the case of your last message it's the gray number right at the end of

quote:
Message 234 of 241 (541766)

at the top of the post. Now it would be cool for Percy to (in his spare time of course) have this shown as:

quote:
Message 234 of 241 [mid=541766]

so us lazy people could just copy and paste it.

See Message 18 of Posting Tips

Edited by RAZD, : redirected


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by hooah212002, posted 01-06-2010 8:09 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by hooah212002, posted 01-06-2010 7:55 PM RAZD has responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19815
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 243 of 265 (541909)
01-06-2010 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Brad H
01-06-2010 1:18 PM


Re: topic
Hi Brad H.

I suggest you pick one topic and work on that until you are familiar with the way this forum operates and what is expected in the way of evidence to support a position (at least in the science threads).

Percy has given you a couple of options for information issues (Message 240).

The issue of what a "kind" is can be enough to rag on for ages without any real resolution (see Species/Kinds (for Peg...and others) for an example), before even getting to the issue of fossil chains.

The issue of fossil chains an be addressed independently (and perhaps more easily) if instead we focus on the degree of change you want to see as a result. A fox and a cat are different kinds, yet they share so may characteristics that it is not difficult to envisage a few minor changes in their evolutionary history to end up with one or the other. If you want to pursue this issue further, I could suggest Dogs will be Dogs wil be ???.

Again, please chose one topic and start simply. Laying down a barrage as you have in this post will just encourage may divergent replies and topic drift.

Pick your best issue, state it simple, and we can be off to a good start.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : link


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Brad H, posted 01-06-2010 1:18 PM Brad H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Brad H, posted 01-06-2010 11:15 PM RAZD has responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19815
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 244 of 265 (541911)
01-06-2010 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by OLEGDEI
01-06-2010 6:12 PM


Re: topic
Hi again OLEGDEI,

Your post is also completely off topic for this thread.

Please reply to my Message 93 on What does 'The Gospel' mean to you - in 200 words or less.

You can visit our website WWW.SCIENCECLUBOFLONGISLAND.COM and study evolution.

I saw very little on your website about evolution, but a lot about hate, a trait that drips from your posts as well. Do you think you can discuss a topic like an adult and leave the childish insults in the playground?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by OLEGDEI, posted 01-06-2010 6:12 PM OLEGDEI has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12589
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 245 of 265 (541913)
01-06-2010 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by OLEGDEI
01-06-2010 6:12 PM


Re: topic
Hi Olegdei,

The goal of EvC Forum is constructive discussion, and the Forum Guidelines serve as a helpful guide in achieving this goal. Insulting personal comments violate the Forum Guidelines, and so I'm again suspending you for 24 hours. If you want to participate here you'll have to behave civilly.

If you need help or clarification regarding how things work here at EvC Forum then please send me a message. Click on the Messaging link above.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by OLEGDEI, posted 01-06-2010 6:12 PM OLEGDEI has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 246 of 265 (541918)
01-06-2010 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by RAZD
01-06-2010 6:27 PM


Re: tips
Right, I know how to do that part. But what about the [tid=?????]? The "topic id" number seems to be a bit more obscure.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2010 6:27 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Percy, posted 01-06-2010 8:04 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 248 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2010 8:16 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18370
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 247 of 265 (541920)
01-06-2010 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by hooah212002
01-06-2010 7:55 PM


Re: tips
If you hover over the link to any message or thread it will tell you the thread ID. I want to make message, thread and forum IDs easy to use, but haven't figured out how to do it without putting ID numbers all over the place. For now I've compromised by putting message numbers with the messages.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by hooah212002, posted 01-06-2010 7:55 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19815
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 248 of 265 (541925)
01-06-2010 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by hooah212002
01-06-2010 7:55 PM


Re: tips
Ah, sorry,

[tid=?????]? The "topic id" number seems to be a bit more obscure.

I agree, and there is no quick and easy copy place that I am aware of.

However, if you 'hover' over the Message 242 in

quote:
Reply to: Message 242 by RAZD
01-06-2010 6:27 PM

you will get a pop up window that gives you the message id, message number, subtitle, thread id and forum id ([fid=10] = Intelligent Design)

This is offtopic and really should be addressed on Posting Tips, Suggestions and Questions

Enjoy

See Message 18 of Posting Tips

Edited by RAZD, : redirected


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by hooah212002, posted 01-06-2010 7:55 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

Brad H
Member (Idle past 3061 days)
Posts: 81
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 249 of 265 (541942)
01-06-2010 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by RAZD
01-06-2010 6:47 PM


Re: topic
The issue of what a "kind" is can be enough to rag on for ages without any real resolution

Yes I agree. I made the terrible mistake of trying to enter into that discussion myself once. When evolutionary scientists can't even agree on exactly what constitutes a species and creationists can't agree on what constitutes a kind, then the discussion is destined to die an agonizing death. However if you'll notice in my post #238, I linked to several evolutionary scientists own comments that seem to clearly make my point. This deems it unnecessary to engage in the "kinds" issue. Clearly paleontologists will mostly agree with the fact that there is no example of even one smooth finely graduated chain of fossils between any two major forms.

if instead we focus on the degree of change you want to see as a result.

I think I am pretty reasonable and would of course never expect one example from each generation. I just think that the transition should be smooth and gradual with no large jumps. For example, in Gould's article "Hooking Leviathan by its past" he claims that there is a good fossil chain for whale evolution. Yet when you look closely you see it is a chain with only five links and there are large leaps of change between each link. Those large jumps are just unacceptable in my view.

So if we are going to question why evolution did not produce infrared sight, in my opinion we first have to prove that it even produced the eye.


I would rather inspire one, than impress a thousand.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2010 6:47 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Iblis, posted 01-06-2010 11:48 PM Brad H has not yet responded
 Message 252 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-07-2010 11:40 AM Brad H has responded
 Message 255 by RAZD, posted 01-07-2010 7:59 PM Brad H has not yet responded

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 2002 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 250 of 265 (541944)
01-06-2010 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Brad H
01-06-2010 11:15 PM


Re: topic
So if we are going to question why evolution did not produce infrared sight, in my opinion we first have to prove that it even produced the eye.

Right, the problem with that is that they aren't proving evolution could produce infrared vision in this thread, that's the attack they are defending against. The topic is "IF evolution were true, it would work better." Throwing "How the heck could it work at all" in there undermines your own side's position and drags the thread off into tail-chasing.

RAZD seems to think the "Dogs wil be" thread might be a good place to discuss your own attack, and has gone to the trouble to bounce if for you. I personally would suggest Another Chance For Creationists To Recite Falsehoods About Intermediate Forms.

Please don't feel that you are being given the run-around with these topic calls. I certainly didn't mean to chase you out of the "Failure" thread, Brian has already stepped up to engage your pertinent arguments there. All I meant was, if you really want to debate Josephus/Tacitus/Pliny/etc then we have to get our own thread to do it in, in Inaccuracy somewhere, so we don't bog down Brian's Bible Study too deeply. His job there is to get people reading the scriptures and thinking about them, not argue textual politics. No hard feelings?

And, back on topic, anybody: how would infrared vision even work for us? I know a lot of animals have it, but to my knowledge they are all color-blind. They have rods only, in other words; wouldn't our cones tend to interfere with tracking heat patterns? What color would the infrared cone be?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Brad H, posted 01-06-2010 11:15 PM Brad H has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Larni, posted 01-07-2010 10:39 AM Iblis has not yet responded

Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 251 of 265 (542035)
01-07-2010 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Iblis
01-06-2010 11:48 PM


Re: topic
wouldn't our cones tend to interfere with tracking heat patterns?

Thermograhic visions works in such organisms as snakes because they hunt mammals who have body temperatures much higher than the snake (otherwise the snakes own body heat would baffle its thermoreceptors).

It would be like having light pour forth from our eyes; we would not be able to see.

Seeing a little further into the IR range would mean we would have to loose some of our other receptors and would have more difficulty in bright light.

In an evolutionary context it would not occur.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Iblis, posted 01-06-2010 11:48 PM Iblis has not yet responded

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3049 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 252 of 265 (542053)
01-07-2010 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Brad H
01-06-2010 11:15 PM


Re: topic
Hi Brad H

I think I am pretty reasonable and would of course never expect one example from each generation. I just think that the transition should be smooth and gradual with no large jumps. For example, in Gould's article "Hooking Leviathan by its past" he claims that there is a good fossil chain for whale evolution. Yet when you look closely you see it is a chain with only five links and there are large leaps of change between each link. Those large jumps are just unacceptable in my view.

I don't know how many whale fossils have been discovered in total, but of course if you're going to show only 5 fossils spanning a period tens of millions of years, from land-based to fully marine, the jumps will have to be large. The examples shown are exactly what would be expected.

To get back to the original question - Evolution would've given us infrared eyesight - I'm not sure that anyone has looked at the overall picture. That is, not just to question why we don't have infrared eyesight, but why do no mammals (as far as I'm aware) have infrared eyesight? And indeed why did we not evolve wings or gills - would they not be useful too? Why do snakes have infrared "sight" but no hands or large brains like humans do? Would it not be an advantage for them if they did?

It sounds obvious but all species are different. Each species fills a niche in the environment and is adapted accordingly. That's why there are lots of different species and not one species only with all possible senses and organs. Many species that live mainly in the dark lose their eyes altogether, even though their ancestors had eyes and just occasionally it might be an advantage for them to have eyes too. It is clear that they have evolved to have no eyes as they often have vestigial remnants of the eyes of their ancestors. Evolution has therefore shown that it is not an overall advantage to have a sense that is only of occasional use. It is more advantageous not to have senses or organs that are of limited use.

Is the fact that certain species have clearly evolved to lose their eyes as a consequence of their environment not sufficient to reasonably assume that evolution could be responsible for developing an eye where it is an advantage?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Brad H, posted 01-06-2010 11:15 PM Brad H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Brad H, posted 01-07-2010 6:16 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded

Brad H
Member (Idle past 3061 days)
Posts: 81
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 253 of 265 (542112)
01-07-2010 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-07-2010 11:40 AM


Re: topic
if you're going to show only 5 fossils spanning a period tens of millions of years, from land-based to fully marine, the jumps will have to be large.

Hi JuC, thank you for your comments. I agree with you that it would. However as I stated in post #238, there doesn't seem to be one single example of a finely graduated chain. Darwin himself first brought up the problem. Origin of Species (1859) p.280. Other scientists have affirmed this problem, like the late Stephan Gould who said, "All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt. Gradualists usually extract themselves from this dilemma by invoking the extreme imperfection of the fossil record." The Return of the Hopeful Monsters. Or like Ernst Mayr who said: "What one actually found was nothing but discontinuities: All species are separated from each other by bridgeless gaps; intermediates between species are not observed . . . The problem was even more serious at the level of the higher categories." The growth of biological thought: diversity, evolution, and inheritance, 1982, p. 524.

Many species that live mainly in the dark lose their eyes altogether, even though their ancestors had eyes and just occasionally it might be an advantage for them to have eyes too. It is clear that they have evolved to have no eyes as they often have vestigial remnants of the eyes of their ancestors.

Yes at first I thought the same thing JuC. But then someone pointed out to me that in order to go from a primitive form to a more advanced form, then mutations which add information to the genetic code must occur all the time. However in cases where a species lost their eye sight, it is merely a situation where already existing information has been lost. This is not an explanation for how it got there to begin with. We should see cases of positive mutations all the time, but no one seems to be able to give me a good example of even one. You can't demonstrate universal common decent through a loss of information. Follow me? In order to prove that universal common decent is plausible someone needs to come up with at least one example of observed added information to the chromosomal DNA of an organism in such a way as to improve its survivability in someway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-07-2010 11:40 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ZenMonkey, posted 01-07-2010 6:47 PM Brad H has responded
 Message 256 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-08-2010 5:18 AM Brad H has responded

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2617 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 254 of 265 (542117)
01-07-2010 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Brad H
01-07-2010 6:16 PM


Re: topic
Brad H writes:

In order to prove that universal common decent is plausible someone needs to come up with at least one example of observed added information to the chromosomal DNA of an organism in such a way as to improve its survivability in someway.

How about the ability to utilize a new food source? Some E. Coli evolved the ability to utilize citrate in oxic conditions.

That's an improvement in survivability as a result of genetic mutation, i.e. adding information to DNA.

Please go read up on the experiment before debating it, please.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Brad H, posted 01-07-2010 6:16 PM Brad H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Brad H, posted 01-09-2010 12:40 PM ZenMonkey has responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19815
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 255 of 265 (542132)
01-07-2010 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Brad H
01-06-2010 11:15 PM


Re: topic
So what thread are you going to move to?
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