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Author
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Topic: Castle Doctrine
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 2 of 453 (573051)
08-09-2010 3:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
08-09-2010 2:29 PM
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It isn't illegal in Canada but it's pretty uncommon. I think I've only seen one privately-owned handgun in my life (and it was on a boat). Living next to the U.S., we have a pretty clear understanding that the enemy is likely to be better armed than we are as well as more inclined to use his weapons. It isn't a fair fight and shooting back is likely to get more people hurt (including children) instead of "protecting" anybody. Long story short, you don't necessarily need legislation against a bad idea.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-09-2010 2:29 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 08-09-2010 8:41 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 7 of 453 (573117)
08-09-2010 9:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
08-09-2010 8:41 PM
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crashfrog writes: So then why do your police have weapons?
The police are only allowed to use their weapons in the case of a direct threat to their own lives or somebody else's. Even the use of pepper spray by police is extremely controverisal. Home defense is not considered a legitimate reason for acquiring a weapon. Business owners can be prosecuted for firing at robbers.
crashfrog writes: But the stats seem pretty clear; they're a very effective tool for the prevention of crime....
Since we really don't use guns to prevent crime, I don't see how your stats are applicable to Canada.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 08-09-2010 8:41 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 08-09-2010 10:34 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 10 of 453 (573124)
08-09-2010 11:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
08-09-2010 10:34 PM
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crashfrog writes: Do your police draw their weapons when apprehending suspects?
Generally, no. As far as I know, the general principle in effect is don't point a weapon at anything you don't intend to kill. It would take a fairly escalated situation for weapons to be drawn.
crashfrog writes: ringo writes: Since we really don't use guns to prevent crime, I don't see how your stats are applicable to Canada.
You just said that they do. Isn't assaulting an officer of the law a crime in Canada? Isn't it a crime to assault a regular citizen?
Neither of those are actually prevented by the use of weapons. Weapons might be used after the fact. I doubt that the use of weapons in prevention of crime is common enough to draw statistical conclusions - and I doubt that foreign statistics would be relevant.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 08-09-2010 10:34 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 17 of 453 (573135)
08-10-2010 12:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
08-10-2010 12:02 AM
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crashfrog writes: If guns couldn't prevent the murder of a policeman, why would policemen carry them?
I didn't say it "couldn't". I'm just saying that he wouldn't be in harm's way in the first place if he wasn't responding to a crime that already happened.
crashfrog writes: One website estimates almost 300,000 home invasions occur in Canada every year.
I don't have any counter-statistics but I find that highly unlikely. That would be almost one home invasion per 100 Canadians. I live in a city of 200,000 with a fairly high crime rate and I hardly ever remember hearing of a home invasion. I know a lot of people who have guns but they tend to think of them as tools for hunting or toys for target shooting. I really don't know of anybody who thinks of a gun as a weapon to protect themselves. We pay professionals to do that, just like we pay professionals to do surgery.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 08-10-2010 12:02 AM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Hyroglyphx writes: The fundamental question is still the same that I asked as the OP -- do you have a fundamental right to protect your home with force, if necessary?
Fundamental right? No. But the OP spoke only of legal rights.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2010 1:16 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My plan
atholic Scientist writes: ...we should lower the speed limit on the highways, what if there's a deaf retard out there!
That's an interesting parallel. We don't expect every driver to be Dale Earnhardt Jr., yet you seem to expect every homeowner to be Wyatt Earp.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My plan
Catholic Scientist writes: ringo writes: We don't expect every driver to be Dale Earnhardt Jr., yet you seem to expect every homeowner to be Wyatt Earp.
Huh? I'm not followin' ya...
You're espousing the Castle Doctrine with the proviso that everybody "should" make good shooting decisions. That's like suggesting a 150 mph speed limit and hoping everybody will drive safely.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My plan
Catholic Scientist writes: I see the opposite as suggesting that the speed limit should be lowered to 30 mph because cars are so uncontrollable and dangerous.
Well, the speed limit is 30 mph where that's appropriate - e.g. on city streets. The parallel would be if the Castle Doctrine was also restricted according to appropriate conditions - e.g. darkness.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My plan
Catholic Scientist writes: Well in my state its restricted by "willful or wanton misconduct"
So, what constitutes "wanton misconduct"? Shooting into the darkness because you think you're in danger? My point here is that the average castle-defender isn't able to make good shooting decisions in the best of conditions, never mind in the dark when he's half asleep. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I know a lot of people who own guns but I don't know a single one that would consider having a loaded gun in the house with his children. They know that's more of a danger to their children than any intruder.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My plan
Catholic Scientist writes: I think I'd do fine. Good decisions aren't that hard if you follow simple gun safety rules. Don't point it at anything you don't want to shoot. Identify your target. etc.
And yet you've been shown in this very thread that trained police officers can't do it reliably, in broad daylight.
Catholic Scientist writes: What do you mean by "loaded"? I have two clips full of bullets in the case sitting beside the gun, but not in the gun. Is that "loaded"?
For the average well-informed five-year-old, I'd say yes. As I said earlier in the thread, though crashfrog disagreed, the intruder has most of the advantages. The only way you can even the odds a little is by being a greater danger than he is to the innocent bystanders.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My plan
crashfrog writes: Human judgement is not universally perfect among all known individuals but that's not an applicable or even reasonable standard.
Sure it is. The greater the potential consequences, the nearer to perfection our behaviour has to be. Killing a human being for threatening your microwave doesn't come anywhere near the level of a "good decision".
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 113 by crashfrog, posted 08-12-2010 2:49 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My plan
Catholic Scientist writes: ringo writes: And yet you've been shown in this very thread that trained police officers can't do it reliably, in broad daylight.
I don't know what you're referring to.
This is what I'm refering to. Here's a line from the article that you may also have forgetten:
quote:
Eberhard and colleagues (2004) conducted experiments with police officers which revealed that they were quicker to decide to shoot an unarmed black target than an unarmed white target, and were quicker to decide to shoot an armed black target than an armed white target.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My plan
Catholic Scientist writes: One case of the police making a bad judgment does mean we can't rely on them to make good shooting decisions.
It isn't one case. Again:
quote:
Eberhard and colleagues (2004) conducted experiments with police officers which revealed that they were quicker to decide to shoot an unarmed black target than an unarmed white target, and were quicker to decide to shoot an armed black target than an armed white target.
There appears to be a systemic problem with police officers making good shooting decisions. And I'm sure we can come up with many more examples. I happen to know of a couple of Canadian examples too. The relevance is that police officers are much better trained than the average homeowner and much more likely to make a good decision.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My plan
Catholic Scientist writes: That cops have been shown to be racist doesn't mean they can't make good shooting decisions.
 Racist shooting decisions are bad shooting decisions.
Here and here are two Canadian cases that immediately come to mind.
Catholic Scientist writes: Maybe I'm not on the same page as you with what good and bad shooting decisions are.
A bad shooting decision is one that results in somebody being shot when he wasn't a (physical) threat.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 704 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My plan
crashfrog writes: Law-abiding citizens should not be the ones expected to bear the burden of the physical risk of another person's choice to commit a crime.
On the contrary, law-abiding citizens are already holding themselves to a higher standard of conduct. Personally, I would rather risk my own safety than kill somebody for threatening it. Adopting a "better him than me" philosophy just lowers us to the criminals' level. Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 125 by crashfrog, posted 08-12-2010 3:48 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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