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Author Topic:   archaeology and evolution
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1043 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 36 of 96 (574650)
08-17-2010 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by archaeologist
08-17-2010 4:56 AM


and you are wrong (regarding the fact that some reputable scholars doubt the existence of Jesus) that is all this comment is worth.
Any comment, even an ignorant one, is worth more than that. It’s worth a demonstration of why it’s wrong, otherwise we can never get anywhere in discussion. For example, in order to demonstrate that your claim that no reputable scholar doubts Jesus’ existence is wrong, I can point to an example of a scholar that doubts Jesus’ existence. Thomas L. Thompson, until last year, was professor of Theology at the University of Copenhagen. He believes that the Jesus story was never meant to be a report of something that really happened, but rather that it’s a myth that teaches us important lessons about salvation — a parable, if you will. He also thinks this would have been clearly understood by people at the time, but was misinterpreted by subsequent generations.
thats how little you seem to know about the OT and the discoveries that have beenmade. the silver scrolls date to the 6th-7th centuiry BC and they are exactly like the modern day correct translations. no change in 2,400 years. the DSS have shown how accurate the modern correct versions are today and these scrolls date back to the 2nd century BC approx. forgotten the exact centuries, could be older.
Having never heard of the silver scrolls, I dutifully went and looked them up. It turns out that they contain, not a complete account of the Bible identical to modern translations, but two verses from one book — Deuteronomy — containing a priestly blessing. This, in the King James’ translation, is the sum total of their contents:
quote:
The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
So, assuming the dating of the scrolls is accurate, all that has been established here is that the Bible contains a general-sounding prayer which had been about since at least the 7th century AD. In no sense does this amount to evidence of the historical accuracy of the Bible, nor evidence for the antiquity of any of the other writings contained in the Bible.
The Dead Sea Scrolls o not date from earlier than the second century BC, usually being dated to between 70 and 150 BC. Oddly enough, the scholars who’ve studied these scrolls have very different interpretations than you do about whether or not they support the idea that the Old Testament has remained unchanging through the years. The Oxford Companion to Archaeology has this to sy (from wikipedia):
quote:
While some of the Qumran biblical manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and Samuel found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content. In their astonishing range of textual variants, the Qumran biblical discoveries have prompted scholars to reconsider the once-accepted theories of the development of the modern biblical text from only three manuscript families: of the Masoretic text, of the Hebrew original of the Septuagint, and of the Samaritan Pentateuch. It is now becoming increasingly clear that the Old Testament scripture was extremely fluid until its canonization around A.D. 100

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by archaeologist, posted 08-17-2010 4:56 AM archaeologist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by archaeologist, posted 08-17-2010 7:19 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1043 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 44 of 96 (574665)
08-17-2010 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by archaeologist
08-17-2010 7:19 AM


it is still the same and it is the book of Numbers {andi knew that there was only the priestly blessing but still 2400 years and no changes.
yes, Numbers sorry. My mistake. My point was simply that it was a prayer. The fact that a single prayer survived a few hundred years and worked its way into the Old Testament tells us nothing about how old or unchanging the rest of the Bible is.
In sum, the general scholarly view today places the Qumran Scrolls roughly between 200BC and 70AD, with a small portion of the texts possibly stretching back to the 3rd century BC...
Looking into this in a little more detail, it seems to be more complicated than that. Carbon dating of various scrolls suggests the oldest may date back as far as 400 BC, while the youngest could be as recent as 600 AD.
some scholars may think this but they do not understand anything about the Bible and wouldn't know. plus like i said before, scholars do not practice deiscernment and do not take into account all the false teachers who tried to change the Bible to fit their views and accept all mss. regardless of this fact, causing them no end of problems.
So, whilst you concede the undeniable fact that lots of different versions of Bible writings exist, this doesn't matter as these should all be considered the fabrications of false teachers. And we know which version is correct because.....
people did not like it when i used conservipedia, butit was handy. i do not like it when people use wikipedia. that is one of the worst references anyone could use.
Well, regardless of our opinions on the relative merits of wikipedia and conservapedia, I was actually quoting the Oxford Companion to Archaeology. The mention of wikipedia was just to be clear where I got the quote from, in case it turns out to have been mangled in some way.

This message is a reply to:
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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1043 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 72 of 96 (575215)
08-19-2010 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by crashfrog
08-19-2010 1:37 AM


Luke is the absolute latest of the Gospels, written as much as a century after the events it purports to recount. The Luke author (who was obviously not named "Luke") didn't "record" anything so much as plagiarize it from other Gospels, embellish it, or simply make it up from whole cloth.
John is the latest of the canonical gospels, and also the one most divorced from reality with the most elaborate and dramatic miracles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2010 1:37 AM crashfrog has replied

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1043 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 88 of 96 (576500)
08-24-2010 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Dogmafood
08-24-2010 9:36 AM


Telescopes in ancient times
The main problem with the argument that telescopes were necessary to accuately picture the constllation of Argo is that it's visible to the naked eye. This is why it's one of the constellations named by ancient astronomers.
So, no telescope needed to draw constellations. The remainder of the argument here appears to be that several lenses were found in a cave in Crete. This seems to be true, crystals taht could have served as lenses have been found in ancient Crete. It's something of leap to jump from this to telescopes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Dogmafood, posted 08-24-2010 9:36 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Dogmafood, posted 08-24-2010 10:26 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1043 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 91 of 96 (576510)
08-24-2010 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dogmafood
08-24-2010 10:26 AM


Re: Telescopes in ancient times
Indeed it is. I was surprised to hear that the Minoans had telescopes. I presume this is the type of thing that passes for confirmation for some. Is there an image of these lenses anywhere?
Not that I've been able to find. All I came across was brief references in a few articles to a lens found on Mt. Ida from about the 5th century BC, most of which appear to have been copied from each other; but then I found one article about them from the American Journal of Archaeology:
Sines, G. & Sakellarakis, Y. A., Lenses in Antiquity, American Journal of Archaeology Vol. 91, No. 2 (Apr., 1987), pp. 191-196
There are pictures of the the lenses in the article, but it's not open access so I can't see them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dogmafood, posted 08-24-2010 10:26 AM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by nwr, posted 08-24-2010 11:13 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1043 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 93 of 96 (576519)
08-24-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by nwr
08-24-2010 11:13 AM


Re: Telescopes in ancient times
The paper indicated that the lenses pictured were concave, so could not be used as magnifiers.
Are you sure you'e looking at the same lenses? In the free preview bit of the article, it describes one as 'a plano-convex lens, 8mm in diameter and 4 mm thick, which has a focal length of 12mm, thereby giving a nomlnal magnification of 20X.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by nwr, posted 08-24-2010 11:13 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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