Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 61 (9027 total)
72 online now:
PaulK, xongsmith (2 members, 70 visitors)
Newest Member: JustTheFacts
Post Volume: Total: 883,415 Year: 1,061/14,102 Month: 53/411 Week: 74/168 Day: 3/19 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Common Ancestor?
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 193 of 341 (693345)
03-14-2013 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tram law
08-17-2010 2:42 PM


...common ancestor found...

If there is a common ancestor to both humans and apes, has it been found?

Chimpanzees and Humans have extremely similar DNA to humans.
But Chimpanzees have one more chromosome than Humans do, (24 pairs), and if Humans and Chimpanzees are genetically related (sharing a common ancestor), this extra chromosome had to go somewhere.
Evolutionary Biologists might predict that two chromosomes fused into one.
But they would need hard evidence to use that hypothesis as more argument for evolution in general, and for a good enough reason to make such a claim.
As it turns out Chromosome number 2 in Humans was once two different chromosomes that were fused together.
Additionally, the evidence is that an extra large Telomere appears in the middle of the #2 chromosome, as well as an extra Centromere, as depicted in the illustration above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)
"Chromosome 2 presents very strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes.
According to researcher J. W. IJdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2.
Because the fused chromosome is unique to humans and is fixed, the fusion must have occurred after the human–chimpanzee split, but before modern humans spread around the world, that is, between 6 million and ~1 million years ago (Mya; Chen and Li 2001; Yu et al. 2001) (Fig.5).

References:
1.Fan Y, et al. Genomic Structure and Evolution of the Ancestral Chromosome Fusion Site in 2q13-2q14.1 and paralogous regions on other human chromosomes. Genome Research 2002, volume 12, pages 1651-1662.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tram law, posted 08-17-2010 2:42 PM Tram law has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 194 of 341 (693346)
03-14-2013 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Wounded King
06-17-2011 4:39 AM


Re: MRCAs of all stripes

It should be noted that neither mitochondrial Eve nor Y-chromosome Adam are considered candidates for the actual MRCA of modern humans. They are the most recent common matrilineal and patrilineal ancestors respectively, the actual MRCA of modern living humans will be considerably more recent.

The sceince supports what Genesis has long taught but the scientists misnomered their findings.

What they call "mitochondrial Eve" ought correspond with the mother of the three racial stocks called Ham, Shem, and Japeth in Gen 5:31, which says these three "sons" evolved 100 (thousand?) years before Noah went in to the ark.

Y-chromosome "Adam" corresponds better to Noah, who would have been dated at the time of the mass extinction of Neanderthals around forty (40) thousand years ago.

The first humanoid to appear was back around 7 milliion years ago, and was possibly sahelanthrpus...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Wounded King, posted 06-17-2011 4:39 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Eli, posted 03-14-2013 2:52 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 196 of 341 (693375)
03-14-2013 6:17 PM


...making up half truths is actuallytelling lies...
Some people try to say Y-chromosomal Adam lived 142,000 years ago by ignoring that estimate is alway a range,.e.; Y-Chromosome Adam lived between 60,000 and 142,000 years ago.

"DNA studies had estimated that Y-chromosomal Adam lived between 60,000 and 142,000 years ago."

This still is an interesting time frame, because Genesis has the three "sons" of Noah born 100,000 years before the flood, that lasted 40,000 years is we agree that a day is/can mean a thousand years in the bible.

This estimate bring Noah closer to Mitochondria Eve who was the mother that would correspond to the birth (evolution) of the three racial stocks of Modern man, Ham, Japeth, and Shem.

But these tike frames are supportive of the appearance of Modern Homo sapiens, which DOES also start 150,000- 200,000 years.

Recent new genetic evidence has uncovered a Y-chromosome in a very select and special group of men, (Africans), which sets the Noah species back way farther than his three "sons," as we ought expect.
It tells us that Naoh and his wife, misnomered as "eve," were not Modern Homo sapiens, but some earlier species very akin to us.
The Y-chromosome for Noah corresponds to his appearance 338,000 years ago!

This ancient individual passed down his genetic legacy from father to son over 11,000 generations. In fact, Albert’s ancestor was so old he was probably a member of a different human species to us.

Albert’s ancestor is our ancestor too. In human genetics, Y-chromosomal Adam is the name given to the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) from whom all living people are descended through the male lines of their family tree. Up to now, DNA studies had estimated that Y-chromosomal Adam lived between 60,000 and 142,000 years ago. The discovery that the Y-chromosome of Albert Perry’s ancestor diverged around a staggering 338,000 years ago means that that the Y-chromosomal Adam title now goes to him.

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/...am-suddenly-got-much-older


Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Eli, posted 03-14-2013 6:39 PM kofh2u has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 199 of 341 (693394)
03-14-2013 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Eli
03-14-2013 6:39 PM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...
So for people who CAN understand the correspondence between one man who was a common ancestor for all people living today, we can see that the Noah story dove tails perfectly with the facts.

1) Noah and this mitochondria "eve," lived 100 thousand years before the forty thousand year flood started. That would identify that common ancestor who we genetic think lived 142,000 years ago with Noah, and hence us.

2) The forty thousand year flood or duration of extinctions, ended and the agricultural Age of 10,000 years ago began,
This again supports the range for a common ancestor hypothesized by Science and mentioned by Genesis:

19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

3) Verse 19 above is supported by the findings of science in that during that 40 thousand years modern man of three racial stocks poured in the Americas, and every land on the bglobe, to the tops of the mountains.

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Eli, posted 03-14-2013 6:39 PM Eli has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Eli, posted 03-15-2013 11:08 AM kofh2u has not yet responded
 Message 206 by Taq, posted 03-15-2013 1:04 PM kofh2u has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 200 of 341 (693395)
03-14-2013 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Just being real
03-14-2013 9:41 PM


genetic again is the reason we see common ancestors and ToE

RE--But, leaving that aside, why should it call it into question? Humans aren't special; we're just another species. There's no reason that a human/chimp common ancestor should be considered more important evidence for the ToE than the hippo/whale common ancestor.--
I was wondering, since creation also predicts that many organisms would share similar

The reason we see ToE as indicated by genetics is that two of the normal 24 Ape chromosomes can be seen to have fused together in man who has only 23 chromosomes.

This means that a new creature was evolved by an Act-of-God about 7 million years ago.
Then we have this genetic trail of evidence that follows down the 22 names of species (see Gen 5:2) which are the 22 now extinct humans which science agrees did exist until the great "flood" Out-of-Africa.

After that extinction, 40,000 years ago, all other kinds of humanoids except those with the Y-chromosome of Noah disappeared.

Modern Homo sapiens is the only kind of human left, and he carries evidence of having sexual relations with the "daughters of another kind of man," some think was Neanderthal man.

All this is parallel information found in Genesis.

My question to you is why don't you use this amazing analogy as evidence FOR the Bible instead of seeking to deny the science????


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Just being real, posted 03-14-2013 9:41 PM Just being real has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Coyote, posted 03-14-2013 10:17 PM kofh2u has not yet responded
 Message 202 by Just being real, posted 03-15-2013 2:40 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 207 of 341 (693450)
03-15-2013 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Taq
03-15-2013 1:04 PM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...
Of course w have genes from all the people in the line of our ascent.
But the Y-chromosome is always passed down to males through that line of ascent that trails back to just those men who also had that exact same chromosome.

Our mother's father is not included there.

When the genetic studies show that all Jewish priests living today are related to just one man, presumaby Aaron, who lived in 1362BC, it means that all the males from that time forward were in their common ascent.

The same thing for the genetic evidence, that we are all related throughour Y-chromosome to just one male who lived 60,000-142,000 years ago.

It means that your mother's father had that same Y-chromosome as did your father.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Taq, posted 03-15-2013 1:04 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Taq, posted 03-15-2013 3:05 PM kofh2u has responded
 Message 209 by NoNukes, posted 03-15-2013 4:16 PM kofh2u has responded
 Message 219 by Eli, posted 03-16-2013 12:05 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 210 of 341 (693466)
03-15-2013 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Taq
03-15-2013 3:05 PM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...

When the genetic studies show that all Jewish priests living today are related to just one man, presumaby Aaron, who lived in 1362BC, it means that all the males from that time forward were in their common ascent.

TAQ:
Why Aaron? How did you determine that a person named Aaron was the source of the Y-chromosome?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

Y-chromosomal Aaron
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thomas, et al. dated the origin of the shared DNA to approximately 3,000 years ago (with variance arising from different generation lengths). The techniques used to find Y-chromosomal Aaron were first popularized in relation to the search for the patrilineal ancestor of all contemporary living humans, Y-chromosomal Adam

Y-chromosomal Aaron is the name given to the hypothesised most recent common ancestor of many of the patrilineal Jewish priestly caste known as Kohanim (singular "Kohen", "Cohen", or Kohane). In the Torah, this ancestor is identified as Aaron, the brother of Moses. The hypothetical most recent common ancestor was therefore jocularly dubbed "Y-chromosomal Aaron", in analogy to Y-chromosomal Adam. Although most priestly functions of the Kohanim (such as Temple sacrifices) ended with the destruction of the second Temple by the Romans in 70 CE, the identity of Kohanim has been carefully preserved throughout history. In traditional synagogues, a Kohen will always be the first person called to the Torah, will be asked to publicly bless the congregation at specified times, will be asked to bless a bride and groom at the wedding, and will be asked to "redeem" every first-born male child. Until recently, however, there was neither scientific support nor continuous written record to support the claim of patrilineal descent from Aaron.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Taq, posted 03-15-2013 3:05 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Eli, posted 03-16-2013 12:08 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 211 of 341 (693467)
03-15-2013 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by NoNukes
03-15-2013 4:16 PM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...

ut the Y-chromosome is always passed down to males through that line of ascent that trails back to just those men who also had that exact same chromosome.

Only to the most recent search person through the appropriate line. It's highly unlikely that this would link through to the first man.

...to the first man, 7 million years ago...????
Of course no geneticist is saying that.

They are going back only as far as Moidern man who appeared about 142,000 years ago.

In human genetics, Y-chromosomal "Adam," (which is a misnomer by science people who would have done better to have associated this common ancestor with Noah), is the name given to the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) from whom all living people are descended through the male lines of their family tree. Up to now, DNA studies had estimated that Y-chromosomal Adam lived between 60,000 and 142,000 years ago.

Scientist who have tried promote interest in their research associated the link to a common ancestor with Adam, but that indicates their ignorance of Genesis, since the common ancestor for us all living today would be Noah.
The "flood' exterminated all other species except the three racial stocks that populated the whole world after that flood.

What is important here is that this FACT suppports the assumption that genesis was really saying Noah appeared about 40 THOUSAND years ago, not 40 "days", as I have been maintaing in my explanation of Genesis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by NoNukes, posted 03-15-2013 4:16 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Coyote, posted 03-15-2013 7:58 PM kofh2u has responded
 Message 213 by NoNukes, posted 03-15-2013 8:55 PM kofh2u has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 215 of 341 (693479)
03-15-2013 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Coyote
03-15-2013 7:58 PM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...

"Anatomically modern humans evolved from archaic Homo sapiens in the Middle Paleolithic, about 200,000 years ago."

So you can read yourself that modern humans evolved ABOUT 200,000 years ago, but only we living today avoided extinction because our Y-chromosome is linked to just one man, presumably Noah, who lived 142,000 years ago.

?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Coyote, posted 03-15-2013 7:58 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Eli, posted 03-16-2013 12:12 AM kofh2u has not yet responded
 Message 222 by Coyote, posted 03-16-2013 12:45 AM kofh2u has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 216 of 341 (693480)
03-15-2013 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by NoNukes
03-15-2013 8:55 PM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...

And 40,000 years is NOT within the range of dates given for the genetic MRCA. So even with your bogus definition of support, your off quite a bit.

.

You are off...

The 40,000 years refers NOT to the appearance of Noah, nor does it date the evolution of the three racial stocks which Genesis calls Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Those three sources of all men living today were born to Noah 100,000 years before the extinction process of 40,000 years began.

Check Gen 5:31 and Gen 7 to see that these Modern Homo sapiens were bor overn 140,000 years ago


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by NoNukes, posted 03-15-2013 8:55 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by NoNukes, posted 03-16-2013 12:00 AM kofh2u has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 217 of 341 (693481)
03-15-2013 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Just being real
03-15-2013 9:08 PM


...for the second time...

So I guess I will pose this question to everyone.
Since special creation also predicts that many organisms would share similar features, what evidence is there for common ancestory that does not rely on the similarity argument? In other words, since both schools of thought predict similarity among many organisms, then similarity can not be used to prove one above the other. So what evidence is there for common ancestory that does NOT depend on the similarities in the phenotype or genetic information?

The first humanoid appeared when an ape surrogate mother with 24 Chromosomes experienced an Act-of-God by which two chromosomes fused together, creating a new creature in God with only 23 Chromosomes.
From that point, intelligence was the resulting feature of the mutation which after 22 links to modern man clearly distinguishes us from Apes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Just being real, posted 03-15-2013 9:08 PM Just being real has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Just being real, posted 03-16-2013 11:42 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 225 of 341 (693509)
03-16-2013 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by onifre
03-16-2013 2:02 PM


Re: genetic again is the reason we see common ancestors and ToE

But why should we just accept something as a "matter of fact" when we haven't ever been shown a logical trail that leads to the stated conclusions?

The entire field of biology and most of modern medicine operate on the premise that the way the Theory of Evolution explains the history of life is the correct interpretation of the evidence.

You believe they are absolutely wrong, everyone who is in these two fields throughout the entire world?

You don't have to accept anything as a matter of fact, like, you could still believe the Earth is flat. But I wouldn't let other people know you believe that.

I'll be nice and not ask since this isn't the thread for that discussion.

Oh I've been here long enough to know you think those who study geology are wrong and have the dates wrong because their dating methods are off.

So you conclude that you are right and all of biology, most of modern medicine and the field of geology are wrong throughout the entire world.

Man, it must be hard being that smart.

I'll be nice and not ask since this isn't the thread for that discussion.

You asked if there was 40,000 year old DNA to comare to modern humans. Well, there is. So now you know the two can be compared. If you want to learn about how the chromosomes fused just research it further. I won't do it for you because I feel anything I post you'll disregard.

...basically... two times that above response.

2X


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by onifre, posted 03-16-2013 2:02 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 226 of 341 (693510)
03-16-2013 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by NoNukes
03-16-2013 12:00 AM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...

KOFH:
The 40,000 years refers NOT to the appearance of Noah, nor does it date the evolution of the three racial stocks which Genesis calls Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Those three sources of all men living today were born to Noah 100,000 years before the extinction process of 40,000 years began.

No Nuk:
Hmm, I wonder where I got the impression that you were claiming that Noah appeared 40,000 years ago. Oh hey, here is you saying exactly that:

From Message 211 by KOFH:

What is important here is that this FACT suppports the assumption that genesis was really saying Noah appeared about 40 THOUSAND years ago, not 40 "days", as I have been maintaing in my explanation of Genesis.
NO NUk:

If you are really dropping the tie between 40,000 years and 40 days, then you are distancing yourself from even this pathetically tenuous tie to Genesis.

It could be confusing unless one purposifully is trying to be obtruse,...

But what I am saying parallels what is in Genesis.

It says that this SPECIES referred to as Noah appeared long ago, personified as if the Noah species represented just one man who could actually have lived for 950 years.

It suggests that Modern Homo sapiens, by analogy, evolved from that species.
This occurred 100,000 years before the massive extinction of all Hominoids, except that Noah species and three racially different Modern Homo sapiens. (Gen 5:31)

The extinction flood over all these humanoids, including Neanderthal man starting about 40,000 years ago.
The only survivors according to genetic evidence, was three racial stocks of Modern Homo sapiens and Cromagnon man, (Noah?).

The evidence supports this by confirming that the three racial stocks contained the Y-chromosome of just one common father to them all, who at this point in the story, would have been one sole member of these Noah species from whom the three evolved.

Point:

1) Noah was NOT modern man, but most like archaic Homo sapiens who appeared about 500,000 years before modern man.

2) Modern Homo sapiens lived 100,000 years before the mass extinction began 40,000 years ago.

3) Added these facts together, Modern Homo sapiens evolved from these Noahians about 150,000-200,000 years ago.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by NoNukes, posted 03-16-2013 12:00 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 227 of 341 (693511)
03-16-2013 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Coyote
03-16-2013 12:45 AM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...

The flood is generally agreed by biblical scholars to have occurred some 4,350 years ago.

Yes, other bible raders try to say there was a flood of water up to the mountain tops, and they, like you, will say I'm nuts for claiming this was a necessary analogy until this Age, because no one would ever have acceot the actual truth, clearly written without analogy to the facts.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

DAY = THOUSAND YEARS,
40 DAYS = 40,000 YEARS


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Coyote, posted 03-16-2013 12:45 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Coyote, posted 03-16-2013 3:39 PM kofh2u has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2609 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 229 of 341 (693515)
03-16-2013 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Coyote
03-16-2013 3:39 PM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...

That's all nonsense, you know.

OK.

Then stop discussing the matter here if your mind is made up.

This forum is for people ho ar open to either side of the discussion and will consider the arguments made.
There is no need for a cheer leader to interject his "vote," one way or the other.

What we have here are those people who insist against all science and reason that men lived as long as 950 years, were all Modern Homo sapiens, and never evoplved from other species.
A great flood cover the earth up to themountain tops, and all the bad men died in 40 "days."

Those that lived were us, who admit we are also sinners and bad, too.

Others say the tale is a fairy tale and makes no sense the way the former explain it.

Then there is thread, where I say the Bible writers were restrained from telling the factual events directly, so they worte a tale which specified the EXACT factual events, but used word with two means for things like "days" because seven Geologial Eras of millions of years would never have been accepted and passed down to us.

Nor woukd the list of 22 names inthe genealogy have been better explained as "22 now extinct humans," as claimed by modern day Paleontologists.
Nor would it have been acceptable until today that these writers said a flood of modern man Out-of-Africa accompanied the extinction of Neanderthal over 40,000 years.

Do us a favor, and refrain from weighing in again with your belief/mere-opinion as if that had merit in the discussion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Coyote, posted 03-16-2013 3:39 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Coyote, posted 03-16-2013 5:21 PM kofh2u has responded
 Message 231 by Admin, posted 03-16-2013 5:29 PM kofh2u has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021