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Author Topic:   The Common Ancestor?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 341 (587019)
10-16-2010 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by frako
10-16-2010 10:41 AM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
frako writes:

i dont get it, if the gen did not have any information on how the organism should look like and function, then there would be no change in the organism.

Genes are portions of long molecules.

Molecules don't contain information about what reactions they undergo. Instead, molecules do what chemistry/physics laws require based on shape and electron configuration of the molecule.

Would you say oxygen molecules contain information describing how iron is to rust? I would not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by frako, posted 10-16-2010 10:41 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by frako, posted 10-16-2010 11:07 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 167 by barbara, posted 10-18-2010 9:53 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 341 (693460)
03-15-2013 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by kofh2u
03-15-2013 2:27 PM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...
ut the Y-chromosome is always passed down to males through that line of ascent that trails back to just those men who also had that exact same chromosome.

Only to the most recent such person through the appropriate line. It's highly unlikely that this would link through to the first man.

It means that your mother's father had that same Y-chromosome as did your father.

Think this through dude. If this were the case for everyone on earth, then the common y-chromosome traceback would necessarily be to a very recent person. There's no way you could trace this all the way back to the first humans on earth.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by kofh2u, posted 03-15-2013 2:27 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by kofh2u, posted 03-15-2013 7:28 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 213 of 341 (693473)
03-15-2013 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by kofh2u
03-15-2013 7:28 PM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...
What is important here is that this FACT suppports the assumption that genesis was really saying Noah appeared about 40 THOUSAND years ago, not 40 "days", as I have been maintaing in my explanation of Genesis.[

Wrong. The remarks about going back to the first man apply equally well to going back to Noah. If the story were true, it is likely that we are all related to a distance descendant of Noah. It is highly unlikely that Noah is the most recent such person.

And let's be careful about the word "supports". Support is not generally used to mean, "not inconsistent with" some hypothesis I hold. Support means "provides evidence for" a hypothesis such that the evidence provides more support for your hypothesis than the accepted explanation.

And 40,000 years is NOT within the range of dates given for the genetic MRCA. So even with your bogus definition of support, your off quite a bit.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by kofh2u, posted 03-15-2013 7:28 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by kofh2u, posted 03-15-2013 11:39 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 218 of 341 (693482)
03-16-2013 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by kofh2u
03-15-2013 11:39 PM


Re: ...making up half truths is actually telling lies...
The 40,000 years refers NOT to the appearance of Noah, nor does it date the evolution of the three racial stocks which Genesis calls Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Those three sources of all men living today were born to Noah 100,000 years before the extinction process of 40,000 years began.

Hmm, I wonder where I got the impression that you were claiming that Noah appeared 40,000 years ago. Oh hey, here is you saying exactly that:

From Message 211

What is important here is that this FACT suppports the assumption that genesis was really saying Noah appeared about 40 THOUSAND years ago, not 40 "days", as I have been maintaing in my explanation of Genesis.

If you are really dropping the tie between 40,000 years and 40 days, then you are distancing yourself from even this pathetically tenuous tie to Genesis.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by kofh2u, posted 03-15-2013 11:39 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by kofh2u, posted 03-16-2013 3:14 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 238 of 341 (693533)
03-17-2013 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Just being real
03-17-2013 12:47 AM


Yes and when one looks for evidence that would support this story, wouldn't one "logically" expect to find that in a plethora of life supposedly all designed by a single designer, many would share similar "design" features?

Similar features, yes. But not necessarily nested hierarchy and even more, not a pattern of phenotype appearances and disappearances over time that suggests evolution.

Now an omnipotent creator could mange any pattern, but Genesis claims some things about what God actually did, and those things are not consistent with what we see.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Just being real, posted 03-17-2013 12:47 AM Just being real has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Just being real, posted 03-17-2013 10:42 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 246 of 341 (693543)
03-17-2013 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Just being real
03-17-2013 10:42 AM


NoNukes writes:

... Genesis claims some things about what God actually did, and those things are not consistent with what we see.

JBR writes:

By all means feel free to give me an example please.

You don't need me come up with examples, but the entire fossil record, including for example, the lack of rabbits or lizards in the pre-Cambrian period is entirely inconsistent with the idea that all animals except humans were created in a one day period.

However a time-sequenced appearance and disappearance of life forms is entirely what we would expect if animal life evolved from a common ancestor or ancestors.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Just being real, posted 03-17-2013 10:42 AM Just being real has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Just being real, posted 03-17-2013 3:05 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 253 of 341 (693563)
03-18-2013 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Just being real
03-17-2013 3:05 PM


When the fossils don't support it why can't creationists just claim "imperfection of the fossil record," like so many evolutionists love to do? Seems like a good a case of "whats good for the goose"... to me.

Well you can surely try to make that case. The problem with doing that with regards to the pre-Cambrian is that the 'imperfection' is not just gaps in establishing some fossil evidence of common descent; essentially all of the higher order mordern life forms are missing from the pre-Cambrian strata. Yet there are enough lower order forms and primitive forms present to let us know life did exist at the time. In short there is both too much and too little there for the creationist.

But yeah, you can equivocate and pretend that the 'imperfect fossil record' you need to explain the missing life forms in the pre-Cambrian is the same thing that evolution proponents point to.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Just being real, posted 03-17-2013 3:05 PM Just being real has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 278 of 341 (693697)
03-19-2013 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by kofh2u
03-19-2013 12:52 PM


1) Sahelanthropus tchadensis is suspected to be the oldest and therefore first in the line of our ascent, i.e., the first "man."

No, this is wrong. Sahelanthropus tchadensis is the oldest known ape in our line of ascent. Sahelanthropus tchadensis was not a human of any persuasion.

Seven millon years ago" is ALSO the approximated date when, by an Act-of-God, a surrogate mother Ape with 24 chromosomes experienced the chemical fusion of two chromosomes inside her womb, hence, evolving the new creature in God's world with only 23 chromosomes, i.e.the first man, again.

And this is way past stupid and completely fabricated. You have absolutely no clue as to how many chromosomes the direct descendants of Sahelanthropus tchadensis had, but we do know that no human being was birthed or sired directly by Sahelanthropus tchadensis. The estimated time of fusion I've seen are about a factor of 10 less than you are claiming here.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 12:52 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 6:50 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 341 (693754)
03-19-2013 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by kofh2u
03-19-2013 6:50 PM


Re: ...of course we have scienc evidence...
t is you who are opposing the scienc of genetics which supports the claim that the fused two chromosomes in humans may well be dated back... SCIENTIFICALLY, THRU GENETICS... to as far back as 6 million years ago.

No, that would be you. See for example:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1987345

quote:
We examined fixed substitutions in the human lineage since divergence from the common ancestor with the chimpanzee, and determined what fraction are AT to GC (weak-to-strong). Substitutions that are densely clustered on the chromosomes show a remarkable excess of weak-to-strong “biased” substitutions. These unexpected biased clustered substitutions (UBCS) are common near the telomeres of all autosomes but not the sex chromosomes. Regions of extreme bias are enriched for genes. Human and chimp orthologous regions show a striking similarity in the shape and magnitude of their respective UBCS maps, suggesting a relatively stable force leads to clustered bias. The strong and stable signal near telomeres may have participated in the evolution of isochores. One exception to the UBCS pattern found in all autosomes is chromosome 2, which shows a UBCS peak midchromosome, mapping to the fusion site of two ancestral chromosomes. This provides evidence that the fusion occurred as recently as 740,000 years ago and no more than ∼3 million years ago.

In either case, both estimates argue against the time of fusion happening during the existence of Sahelanthropus tchadensis. Accordingly science is not consistent with your claim that Sahelanthropus tchadensis is either Adam of the surrogate mother of Adam.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 6:50 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 303 of 341 (693790)
03-20-2013 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by foreveryoung
03-19-2013 5:21 PM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
How do you know there was no adam?

What does it mean to you to be Adam? Adam is the Hebrew word for 'man', and of course there was a first man. Is that enough? Is there some role described in Genesis that Adam must fill other than being first?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by foreveryoung, posted 03-19-2013 5:21 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by kofh2u, posted 03-20-2013 9:27 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 314 of 341 (693825)
03-20-2013 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by kofh2u
03-20-2013 9:27 AM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
This "Adam" clearly fits the bill as the first "man" when the genetics dates the fusing of the two fused chromosomes back 6-7 million years ago, when Sahelanthropus tchadensis appeared in the fossil record.

1. Genetics dates the fusion to be more recent than this period. estimates are between 0.7 and 3 Mya.

2.Sahelanthropus tchadensis was not a man.

3. My question clearly asked about anything foreveryoung needed for Adam other than being first. Thanks for playing though.

NoNukes writes:

Is that enough? Is there some role described in Genesis that Adam must fill other than being first?

4. Grrr!


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by kofh2u, posted 03-20-2013 9:27 AM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by kofh2u, posted 03-30-2013 2:19 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 324 of 341 (694921)
03-30-2013 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by kofh2u
03-30-2013 2:19 PM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
How can I answer you when Percy won't let me??????

If you have anything meaningful to say, surely it's on topic in your own thread.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by kofh2u, posted 03-30-2013 2:19 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
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