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Author Topic:   The 6 stages of an EvC argument
Nij
Member (Idle past 3084 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


(1)
Message 1 of 29 (575483)
08-20-2010 6:00 AM


And now for something completely different...
Evening all.

After lurking for quite some time, for my first thread proposal I would like to develop a new discussion, with the purpose of identifying the various stages of a thread in progress, involving discussion of how these stages interweave, overlap, and even flip-flop around.

Possible development regarding the stages, their number and order, and some of the aspects used to define each would be better, but commentary - provided it stays on topic - about the idea of the 'stages' or specific examples of each in existing threads would be useful in the later parts of the debate.

These stages are, in brief:


  1. The initiation: the thread is established, the topic is defined. Those involved begin to post their initial thoughts about the subject, possibly overlapping into stage 2.

  2. The claims: those involved begin to make their claims and assertions, either positive ("this is") or negative ("this is not"), proactive ("here is the idea: ..") or reactive ("that proposed idea is .."), tentative ("I think") or firm ("we know").

  3. The support: sources are provided, analysed and discussed; evidence is presented, whether in support of a proposition or claim, or in denial/contradiction of it; facts are weighed by those concerned and assigned value as to reliability and veracity.

  4. The rebuttal: people begin offering secondary evidence and opinions, and replying to earlier criticisms either to defend or alter the initial proffered claims.

  5. The degradation: debate becomes heated and sometimes personal, with ad-homs more common, rationality scarce and everybody quite fired up in their posting. Moderator intervention is much more "aggressive", and the majority or blockings occur during this stage.

  6. The closure: this may follow several periods of repeated stages 4 and 5, but generally precedes abandonment/"terminal drift"/moderator locking of the thread, and normally invokes summaries of the thread from each contributor's position and what results they feel came of it.

I am unsure of what forum this would belong in; whatever concerns the meta-consideration of the EvC debate as a whole, and pertaining especially to this set of fora in particular, sounds good.

edit: is there coding to make a bulleted list? It would tidy up the '6 stages are' part much.

Edited by Nij, : Bullets?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added more blank lines. Do list/bullet coding (use "peek" to see method).


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Admin
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From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 2 of 29 (575542)
08-20-2010 12:03 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The 6 stages of an EvC argument thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 3 of 29 (575562)
08-20-2010 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nij
08-20-2010 6:00 AM


Re: And now for something completely different...
Evening all

Wotcha. And welcome.

After lurking for quite some time....

Lot's of newbies say this and it always intrigues me. I remember when I first came across this site. I started reading, was impressed with the level of debate as compared to anywhere else I had seen and sort of vaguely thought I should absorb some of the ideas before embarking myself. Then somebody said something in the thread I was reading that I felt compelled to respond to and that was that. My lurking period must have lasted all of 3 minutes.

What have you lurked? Who are your fave posters as a lurker? Just curious.

These stages are, in brief:

Frankly I think your stages are pretty accurate. Which is a nice way to introduce myself to you. Largely agreeing as we do.

But let's see if things are quite so friendly by the time we reach stage 5

Anyway I hope others will respond to your topic and I hope things get a bit more contentious than they are currently. Because that is where the fun lies.


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Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 4 of 29 (575571)
08-20-2010 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Straggler
08-20-2010 1:44 PM


Re: And now for something completely different...
Straggler writes:

Lot's of newbies say this and it always intrigues me. I remember when I first came across this site. I started reading, was impressed with the level of debate as compared to anywhere else I had seen and sort of vaguely thought I should absorb some of the ideas before embarking myself. Then somebody said something in the thread I was reading that I felt compelled to respond to and that was that. My lurking period must have lasted all of 3 minutes.

What have you lurked? Who are your fave posters as a lurker? Just curious.


Well, I lurked here for quite some time (from before "the purge" even. My favourite posters from those months were Jar and Rahvin, I think, and RAZD as well.

Anyway, to add something to the topic, the 6 stages I see mostly happening are:


  1. Topic gets proposed
  2. Topic gets promoted, people come in telling the creationist is wrong, and point out his mistakes
  3. Creationist fails to respond to the posts that were made to him, simply rambling on. Sometimes accusing the other party of not being honest/lying.
  4. More refutations come in, people ask why he is reacting the way he is.
  5. Creationists either losses it completely and gets banned, or he leaves, never to be heard of again.

In rare occasions, the creationist actually is a decent enough person to get a nice conversation going. and in that case, your list is more accurate than mine.

As to this:

Nij writes:

edit: is there coding to make a bulleted list? It would tidy up the '6 stages are' part much.


Use the "peek" button on the bottom right of this post to see how I did that list, alternatively you can read this page where all the dBCodes are listed. Alos, when you reply, this page is accesible to the left of the relpy box, click the "help" links next to "HTML On" and "dBCodes On".
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 5 of 29 (575581)
08-20-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Huntard
08-20-2010 1:59 PM


Re: And now for something completely different...
Your list is pretty accurate when it comes to some newly invigorated creationist looking on the web for a place to vent his polemic.

They, as you rightly point out, tend to leave here rather hastily once they ascertain the level of questioning and argument to which they are going to be exposed.

There are exceptions. Slev, Buz, ICANT and Dr Sing obviously spring to mind. Stalwarts who take a lot of shit but who keep coming back for more. As wrong as I think they are this place wouldn't be the same without them.


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Huntard
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 6 of 29 (575584)
08-20-2010 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Straggler
08-20-2010 2:19 PM


Re: And now for something completely different...
Straggler writes:

Your list is pretty accurate when it comes to some newly invigorated creationist looking on the web for a place to vent his polemic.
They, as you rightly point out, tend to leave here rather hastily once they ascertain the level of questioning and argument to which they are going to be exposed.


Yes, perhaps I should've added "recently" as a qualifier as well. Ah well.

There are exceptions. Slev, Buz, ICANT and Dr Sing obviously spring to mind. Stalwarts who take a lot of shit but who keep coming back for more. As wrong as I think they are this place wouldn't be the same without them.

Quite right, at least they are "decent persons" who don;t go screaming on the top of their lungs about how dishonest and lying we all are. Which is what I meant with the second part of my post. As long as you are a decent person, being wrong does not have to stand in the way of a nice discussion.
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 7 of 29 (575585)
08-20-2010 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nij
08-20-2010 6:00 AM


Re: And now for something completely different...
Welcome to evcforum. As a former Aussie, it's nice to see a Kiwi joining.

I haven't thought much about your list, although it seems to be roughly right. What happens mostly, is that creationists join the site fully determined to refute evolution. Then they come face to face with the problem that evolution really is well supported by the evidence, and those obvious refutations they had been taught simply miss by a mile.

The debating is a lot easier for the pro-evolution people, because the evidence is on their side. The effect is that the creationists become increasingly frustrated and emotional, while the evolutionists are usually able to keep their cool.

I think, if a creationist were to join the site with the aim of simply joining the discussion (rather than refuting evolution), they could actually have a reasonably pleasant time. But that is not the way most creationists approach the site.


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Replies to this message:
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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1792
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 8 of 29 (575608)
08-20-2010 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nij
08-20-2010 6:00 AM


Re: And now for something completely different...
I am new here myself but I would say that your assessment is mostly accurate. Keeping in mind that there are obviously a wide range of reasons for people to come and the threads range across the spectrum. Some come to learn others to teach.

I would say that the level of discourse can go as high or low as you choose. It is like walking into a party and realizing you are having a beer with a theoretical physicist or a biologist or Joseph Cambell.

It is a veritable gold mine of knowledge and wisdom.

Edited by Dogmafood, : sp


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Tram law
Member (Idle past 2899 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 9 of 29 (575679)
08-20-2010 7:40 PM


I'm pretty new here myself and I did come to learn about the material.

I'm no creationist but I often feel like I'm caught in between the two sides and each are telling that I have to believe their way or I'm nothing.

It gets confusing too, and I sometimes wonder who I should believe.


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Nij
Member (Idle past 3084 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 10 of 29 (575686)
08-20-2010 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Huntard
08-20-2010 1:59 PM


Oh, yay.
Thanks for the welcome, everybody. And for telling me I'm right that's always nice.

I spent maybe a few months lurking, and covered pretty much every forum (except the Bible Studies; the book makes no sense and there are plenty of more interesting ones to read).
I don't really have any favourite posters; most of the material on here is pretty good. There's the two or three that I refuse to read in their entirety, preferring to read any responses and see what the gist of it was while it gets torn to shreds by somebody like RAZD, crashfrog, or one of the fine folk that's already replied here. I finally decided to join since another site I was on decided to get boring and inconsistent. Plus I haven't had any good debate with a creo/young earther/"nice" fundy in quite a while and this seemed like the first place to try.

Now, onwards!
My earlier list was a bit more pessimistic, something on the order of:


  1. Creationist makes absurd claim.
  2. Creationist is proven wrong.
  3. Creationist goes on mad streak, throwing out accusations of conspiracy and dishonesty.
  4. Everybody abuses creationist for being... well, a creationist.

and then very rarely followed by evos actually discussing the topic at hand, often with a devil's advocate, while the creo shows up to continue step 3.

Perhaps these are actually the two main branches of the tree, the first one being what happens with a "nice" creo (Buz, etc.) and the second is what happens with a "not nice" creo (archie, etc.).

Edited by Nij, : No reason given.


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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1792
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 11 of 29 (575701)
08-20-2010 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tram law
08-20-2010 7:40 PM


It gets confusing too, and I sometimes wonder who I should believe.

Disregard the rhetoric, stack up the facts and follow the logic. Faith is personal, science is public. Even though I really have to work at presenting a good argument I can sure recognize one when I see it. You probably can too.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19978
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 12 of 29 (575703)
08-20-2010 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nij
08-20-2010 6:00 AM


Re: And now for something completely different...
Hi Nij, and welcome to the fray.

My lurking was also very brief, but I came here from another C vs E thread (one with no moderation at all so there were some abusing posters, anarchy was the rule) so I was already in the mood.

I find this board exceptional in content, and the continued attempt to have a civil discourse on any topic.

One of the other things I have noticed is that there are people that "carry baggage" from one thread to another, and so they will often start right in on stage 5 rather than read what is said.

Enjoy.

... as you are new here, some posting tips:

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2384 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 13 of 29 (575760)
08-21-2010 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Nij
08-20-2010 7:54 PM


Re: Oh, yay.
Perhaps these are actually the two main branches of the tree, the first one being what happens with a "nice" creo (Buz, etc.) and the second is what happens with a "not nice" creo (archie, etc.).

Actually I would say the tree has 2 main branches both with 2 sub branches. At times some on my side (evo) also show the archieish form of niceness.

As for lurking. I was a lurker for about 1 minute ­± 10 seconds.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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sac51495
Member (Idle past 2914 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 14 of 29 (575765)
08-21-2010 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nij
08-20-2010 6:00 AM


Re: And now for something completely different...
Hello Nij, and welcome to EvCforum.

I myself am relatively new here, although I have read plenty of material (but my "lurker" time was, like bluescat said, probably about 1 minute and 10 seconds.......). I certainly hope that you do enjoy your time here at EvC, and especially that glory would be brought to God in one way or another through your presence here...


I found myself smiling and chuckling a little bit after each of your points, because they were quite true...very well done...

I also noticed that some other repliers on this thread bashed up the creationists on this forum pretty good. I can't say for sure whether or not all that they say is true (about the proceedings of discussion), but if indeed it is true (to at least an extent), it is rather disheartening that any Christian would do something not fully glorifying to God, and would rather resort to something other than intelligent discussion....

Buuut anyways, I hope that you can find some good discussion with God glorifying creationists/theists (or with atheists...whoever you choose to discuss with) on this forum.

Just for the sake of the telling you, I'm here to:

  • Give a reason for the hope that is within me.

  • Learn better how to give a reason for the hope that is within me.

  • Obtain more reasons for the hope that is within me.

    "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear" (I Peter 3:15)

    Gotta love that last phrase, don'tcha?

    So I certainly hope that I will come across as someone who is giving a defense "with meekness and fear", not with "pride and carelessness".

    Edited by sac51495, : rearrangement of phrase

    Edited by sac51495, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
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  • sac51495
    Member (Idle past 2914 days)
    Posts: 176
    From: Atlanta, GA, United States
    Joined: 04-02-2010


    Message 15 of 29 (575767)
    08-21-2010 1:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 13 by bluescat48
    08-21-2010 12:28 AM


    Re: Oh, yay.
    bluescat,

    archieish

    I have no idea in the world what this word means, and I tried to look it up on dictionary.com and still couldn't find it...so please enlighten me .


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by bluescat48, posted 08-21-2010 12:28 AM bluescat48 has responded

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