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Author Topic:   Is religion good for us?
mikechell
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 167 of 181 (759208)
06-09-2015 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by AZPaul3
06-09-2015 6:14 PM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
From Merriam-Webster:
an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true

a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena

But I'll defer to your definition and start using the term "hypothesis".


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 168 of 181 (759211)
06-09-2015 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by mikechell
06-09-2015 7:21 PM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
Look up scientific theory

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 169 of 181 (759233)
06-10-2015 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Theodoric
06-09-2015 7:28 PM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
Wiki writes:

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

But why must evidence be provided for a belief?


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 170 of 181 (759234)
06-10-2015 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Phat
06-10-2015 2:03 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
Phat writes:

But why must evidence be provided for a belief?

If evidence could be provided for a belief, it would no longer be a belief it would be a fact. People don't believe in facts, they accept facts.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Phat, posted 06-10-2015 2:03 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 06-10-2015 3:14 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 171 of 181 (759235)
06-10-2015 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Tangle
06-10-2015 2:09 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
My point is that you dismiss any and all beliefs...due to no evidence.

While this is your preference it is by no means the only option.

Granted we believers may be engaging in fantasy but this is not a default conclusion simply because evidence is lacking.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Tangle, posted 06-10-2015 2:09 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Tangle, posted 06-10-2015 6:48 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 173 by Larni, posted 06-10-2015 7:27 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 175 by mikechell, posted 06-10-2015 7:46 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 172 of 181 (759238)
06-10-2015 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
06-10-2015 3:14 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
Phat writes:

My point is that you dismiss any and all beliefs...due to no evidence.

You've only got part of it. Those that reject religion do it for many reasons - one of which may also be just a belief; a belief that it's all nonsense.

Speaking for myself I reject it because there's no evidence at all for any of its precepts, but also that most of what religions thought/think were/are true have been factually shown to be incorrect.

On top of that, much of bible based religious teachings are immoral and harmful and many of its teachers are corrupt and abusive. Religious history is littered with atrocities and is quite plainly simple a struggle for wealth and power. The entirety of it is shown quite easily to be a human construct.

If there is a good side to all this, it's that everyday people have been able to build communities and support groups and had some comfort in thinking that all their pain and struggles in this life will be rewarded in the next. Opium for the masses.

Granted we believers may be engaging in fantasy but this is not a default conclusion simply because evidence is lacking.

It damn well should be. Why would you accept anything as important as this on no evidence whatsoever?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 06-10-2015 3:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 173 of 181 (759241)
06-10-2015 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
06-10-2015 3:14 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
If there is no evidence to convict John of killing Keith we can't just say:

"But I believe he did".


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 181 (759242)
06-10-2015 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Larni
06-10-2015 7:27 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
If there is no evidence to convict John of killing Keith we can't just say:

"But I believe he did".

Of course we can.

Haven't you ever believed someone did something that you couldn't prove they did?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Larni, posted 06-10-2015 7:27 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by mikechell, posted 06-10-2015 7:51 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply
 Message 178 by Larni, posted 06-10-2015 8:05 AM Jon has responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 181 (759244)
06-10-2015 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
06-10-2015 3:14 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
Granted we believers may be engaging in fantasy but this is not a default conclusion simply because evidence is lacking.

The question should be, "Why one believes?" Not, "If one believes?"

The "why," is to feel like one's life "means" something. To feel like one's suffering will be rewarded somehow, after death. Most people can't face the fact that they're just another animal on a planet of animals and there's nothing more important about them than that.

Edited by mikechell, : No reason given.

Edited by mikechell, : spelling


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

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 Message 171 by Phat, posted 06-10-2015 3:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 181 (759245)
06-10-2015 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Jon
06-10-2015 7:41 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
If there is no evidence to convict John of killing Keith we can't just say:
"But I believe he did".

Of course we can.

Haven't you ever believed someone did something that you couldn't prove they did?

Fortunately, you can't CONVICT on belief alone.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Jon, posted 06-10-2015 7:41 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by vimesey, posted 06-10-2015 7:56 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1245
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 177 of 181 (759246)
06-10-2015 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by mikechell
06-10-2015 7:51 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
Fortunately, you can't CONVICT on belief alone.

Absolutely right, in theory. In practice, it's a depressingly regular occurrence.

(Which is sort of off topic - and I completely back your point that belief can never be used as a basis for harming another person in any way whatsoever.)


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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 Message 176 by mikechell, posted 06-10-2015 7:51 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 178 of 181 (759247)
06-10-2015 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Jon
06-10-2015 7:41 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
Okay.

What I should have said was that we can't say "I believe he did it" and expect to get a conviction as there is no reason to suspect John if there is no evidence to inform that opinion.

Abe: I'm talking about evidence, not proof.

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Jon, posted 06-10-2015 7:41 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Jon, posted 06-10-2015 8:11 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 181 (759248)
06-10-2015 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Larni
06-10-2015 8:05 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
... we can't say "I believe he did it" and expect to get a conviction as there is no reason to suspect John if there is no evidence to inform that opinion.

Hopefully not.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Larni, posted 06-10-2015 8:05 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 292 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 180 of 181 (759252)
06-10-2015 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Larni
06-10-2015 7:27 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
Larni writes:

If there is no evidence to convict John of killing Keith we can't just say:

"But I believe he did".


I agree with Jon that we can say exactly that. We just can't convict.

Not every matter is supposed to be approached like a criminal trial. As a society, we think it's preferable to acquit a guilty person than convict an innocent one. However, skepticism only protects us from making a type-1 error (accepting a false null hypothesis). There are plenty of cases where we act on little or no real evidence to avoid making a type-2 error (rejecting a true null hypothesis). We leave buildings when we hear a fire alarm instead of waiting for the sight of open flames; we take the kid to the emergency room when he falls off his bike instead of holding out until there's proof of bone breakage; and no offense, but we believe what pop science books tell us about the scientific consensus rather than reviewing the raw data first hand.


This message is a reply to:
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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 181 (759255)
06-10-2015 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by MrHambre
06-10-2015 9:03 AM


Re: Wow! talk about off topic !!!
... we believe what pop science books tell us about the scientific consensus rather than reviewing the raw data first hand.

Or, (no offense intended) some believe what pop bibles tell them without reviewing the facts to the contrary.

Edited by mikechell, : No reason given.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
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