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Author Topic:   Evolving the Musculoskeletal System
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 451 of 527 (599633)
01-09-2011 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by ICdesign
01-09-2011 10:23 AM


This is exactly what I mean about a waste of precious time. Ho Hum.
Because a computer is intelligence. Coming up with a design on a computer program is not simulating evolution. If man has to help in the outcome of a design, it is not evolution.
What part of this don't you guys understand?

Who designed the antenna?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by ICdesign, posted 01-09-2011 10:23 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3139 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 452 of 527 (599640)
01-09-2011 3:28 PM


void for now

Edited by ICdesign, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2011 4:00 PM ICdesign has responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1985 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 453 of 527 (599646)
01-09-2011 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by ICdesign
01-09-2011 3:28 PM


Having an antenna design is only a small part of the equation.

Ah, but it is the central, key, most impotant part of "the equation" that blows apart your entire belief system in design

Irrespective of the computer involved, the materials used to construct the system, the engineers who constructed the systems, the intelligence involved in determining what the designs were useful for, the fact that the antennas did not construct themselves...

... nowhere in all of this is found the information that carries the design of the antenna.

Where is the source of this information???

It is exactly the same source as the entirety of evolution. It is the environment.

If you wish to preserve your belief in the necessaity of a designer, you would do well to run away at this point and try to forget the above, as it is the death blow to Intelligent Design.

Enjoy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by ICdesign, posted 01-09-2011 3:28 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by ICdesign, posted 01-09-2011 4:14 PM cavediver has responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3139 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 454 of 527 (599649)
01-09-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by cavediver
01-09-2011 4:00 PM


cavediver writes:

Where is the source of this information???


The source is a computer program designed by an intelligent mind.
Would the antenna design exist if you took intelligent man out of the equation? Yes or no?

Is information alone enough to create a material system? yes or no?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2011 4:00 PM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2011 4:38 PM ICdesign has responded
 Message 460 by subbie, posted 01-09-2011 4:59 PM ICdesign has responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3139 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 455 of 527 (599652)
01-09-2011 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Percy
01-09-2011 2:44 PM


Percy writes:

I write design software for a living. Your computer uses chips designed using software that I helped write. I specialize in the areas of logic simulation and timing analysis. I am intimately familiar with how both computer hardware and software work, and I will not steer you wrong.


Then you should know without me having to point out such a simple truth.
Would a computer or a computer program exist without an intelligent mind such as yours? yes or no?

Although you have been asked to address how you tell when something has "intentional purpose," you've never answered. A watering hole on the Savannah has the purpose of providing water for the animals in the area. How do you know whether that purpose was "intentional" or not? Is it just a case of you can't explain "intentional purpose," but you know it when you see it? If so then you need to develop some scientific criteria for establishing when something has "intentional purpose" or not

Does your heart have an intentional purpose?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Percy, posted 01-09-2011 2:44 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by jar, posted 01-09-2011 4:30 PM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 459 by Panda, posted 01-09-2011 4:46 PM ICdesign has responded
 Message 465 by Percy, posted 01-09-2011 5:55 PM ICdesign has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31775
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 456 of 527 (599655)
01-09-2011 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by ICdesign
01-09-2011 4:21 PM


ICDESIGN writes:

Does your heart have an intentional purpose?

Nope.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by ICdesign, posted 01-09-2011 4:21 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 448 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 457 of 527 (599657)
01-09-2011 4:35 PM


Who designed these stalactites and stalagmites?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1985 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 458 of 527 (599658)
01-09-2011 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by ICdesign
01-09-2011 4:14 PM


The source is a computer program designed by an intelligent mind.

Wrong - the design of the antenna does not exist in the computer programme.

Would the antenna design exist if you took intelligent man out of the equation? Yes or no?

Irrelevant - I have already addressed this in my previous post - from where does the antenna design originate?

Is information alone enough to create a material system? yes or no?

Irrelevant - I have already addressed this in my previous post - from where does the antenna design originate?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by ICdesign, posted 01-09-2011 4:14 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by ICdesign, posted 01-09-2011 5:44 PM cavediver has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2054 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 459 of 527 (599659)
01-09-2011 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by ICdesign
01-09-2011 4:21 PM


ICdesign writes:

Does your heart have an intentional purpose?


Percy posted a detailed, considerate post.
I am wondering why you decided to ignore most of it, and simply cherry pick a couple of random points.

Did you not understand it?
Are you debating dishonestly?
Or were you unable to defend your position?

I am thinking that it is a combination of all three.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by ICdesign, posted 01-09-2011 4:21 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 460 of 527 (599661)
01-09-2011 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by ICdesign
01-09-2011 4:14 PM


The source is a computer program designed by an intelligent mind.
Would the antenna design exist if you took intelligent man out of the equation? Yes or no?

Is information alone enough to create a material system? yes or no?

Are you still obtusely missing the point, yes or no?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by ICdesign, posted 01-09-2011 4:14 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by ICdesign, posted 01-09-2011 5:47 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3139 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 461 of 527 (599668)
01-09-2011 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by Panda
01-09-2011 4:46 PM


Percy posted a detailed, considerate post.
I am wondering why you decided to ignore most of it, and simply cherry pick a couple of random points.

Because I am not interested in debating a chapter of information. That's why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Panda, posted 01-09-2011 4:46 PM Panda has not yet responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3139 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 462 of 527 (599669)
01-09-2011 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by cavediver
01-09-2011 4:38 PM


Wrong - the design of the antenna does not exist in the computer programme.

The antenna was generated by a computer program.

Irrelevant - I have already addressed this in my previous post - from where does the antenna design originate?

Maybe its irrelevant to you but not to the truth. Would the antenna exist if intelligence was taken out of the equation? Yes or no? That is the relevant question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2011 4:38 PM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2011 5:56 PM ICdesign has responded
 Message 473 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-09-2011 11:05 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3139 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 463 of 527 (599670)
01-09-2011 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by subbie
01-09-2011 4:59 PM


Are you still obtusely missing the point, yes or no?

No. I seem to be the only one around here able to grasp the relevant questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by subbie, posted 01-09-2011 4:59 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3139 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 464 of 527 (599671)
01-09-2011 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by Coyote
01-09-2011 4:35 PM


Who designed these stalactites and stalagmites?

All design comes from the same source. God

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Coyote, posted 01-09-2011 4:35 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19108
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 465 of 527 (599672)
01-09-2011 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by ICdesign
01-09-2011 4:21 PM


Hi ICDesign,

You ignored much of a long post. We don't want to lose track of the progress we made. The points you're ignoring are:

  • Evolution has a mechanism, descent with modification filtered by natural selection. Creationism has no mechanism.

  • There are examples of any system at all stages of complexity and development.

  • Improvements occur in tiny mutational steps that confer some tiny advantage.

  • Improvements build upon previous improvements resulting in increasing complexity.

About computers:

ICdesign writes:

Then you should know without me having to point out such a simple truth.
Would a computer or a computer program exist without an intelligent mind such as yours? yes or no?

Of course hardware and software are the products of intelligence, but I never said otherwise and that wasn't your point. Your point was that a simulation of a natural process means that that process is itself intelligent. I explained that this was false because otherwise it would mean that anything simulated is intelligent, like the weather and aerodynamics and soil erosion. Evolution is a natural process just like the weather and aerodynamics and soil erosion. We observe the evolutionary processes of descent with modification (mutations and allele mixing) filtered by natural selection in all life, and this becomes especially clear in breeding programs where people decide which pairs produce offspring instead of the environment.

So do you now understand that simulating a natural process doesn't mean the process is intelligent?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by ICdesign, posted 01-09-2011 4:21 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by ICdesign, posted 01-09-2011 6:17 PM Percy has responded

  
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