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Author Topic:   "Creation Science" experiments.
hooah212002
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Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 1 of 396 (578261)
09-01-2010 8:59 AM


Given the influx of IDists/creationists touting a separate form of science and differentiating between "secular" science and "ID/creation science", I propose they provide us with some experiments that would be in accordance with said "ID/creation science".

All that is required would be something that any one of us could do at home with household materials, as there are hundreds of thousands of "secular" experiments we can do.

Here is a site that is full of simple experiments that anyone can do: science is FUN DAMMIT!

My main goal for this is to get the anti-science crowd to appreciate what science is and for them to stop thinking that it is something out to get them.


Your god believes in Unicorns
Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 396 (578289)
09-01-2010 10:50 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the "Creation Science" experiments. thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
hooah212002
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Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 3 of 396 (578467)
09-01-2010 8:00 PM


No takers?
No one has any experiments for us to try?


Your god believes in Unicorns
Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
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Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 4 of 396 (578475)
09-01-2010 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by hooah212002
09-01-2010 8:00 PM


Re: No takers?
One could try saying "let there be light" loudly, in a Charlton Heston sort of voice but in the absence of voice-activated lamps, and see if anything happens.
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Dr Adequate
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Message 5 of 396 (578481)
09-01-2010 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
09-01-2010 8:59 AM


To be fair to creationists, even if creationism had any merit then surely the proof would have to lie principally in observation rather than experiment.

They'd be pointing to the fact that radiometric dating showed that the Earth was 6000 years old, and to the well-marked flood layer found on all continents dated to around 2500 BC, and to the fact that the biogeographical distribution of species was consistent with dispersal from the mountains of Ararat, and to the genetic analysis showing that every land species went through a population bottleneck around 2500 BC, and to the fact that the most distant visible stars were no more than six thousand light-years away ... and so on.

And then if you had any lingering doubts they could take you to the Zoo and show you the talking snakes.


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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 6 of 396 (578490)
09-01-2010 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Adequate
09-01-2010 8:21 PM


ICR Sues Texas is what made me think of this. The resident creationist/IDist's seem to think that their science is different than actual science. This is their chance to show us an alternative to secular science, since they are so adamant that secular science just doesn't work.

If creation science is better, then I should be able to perform some simple experiments, yes? If it can replace the accepted scientific method, any layperson should be able to perform some experiments using the creation/ID method.

Edited by hooah212002, : fixed thread link


Your god believes in Unicorns
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hooah212002
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Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 7 of 396 (578685)
09-02-2010 10:25 AM


Contestant Number 1
Message 250 ICR Sues Texas

Dawn Bertot writes:

Observe an organism, a micro-organism, watch its independent functions of coherently, logical and orderly operation and consistent behavior.

Then draw a conclusion after you observe tens of thousands of other organisms, see if they operate in the same orderly, logical fashion, independently and in conjuntion with other organisims

Do thier parts operate in an orderly fashion to make the organism function properly and accurate fashion to achieve its purpose

So, the first experiment we have is "does life look to me like it was designed".

I'll take one bit of this: "see if they operate in the same orderly, logical fashion, independently and in conjuntion with other organisims"

Yes. Symbiosis is most definitely not a characteristic of design. It is a sign that said organisms fill their particular niche and have evolved alongside other organisms to live harmoniously with them. How can we test this? Easy: introduce a new species to an area and see what happens.

This is evident in the infestation of the Asian Carp in the Great Lakes

Also, any number of invasive species. If life was designed, why doesn't all life live harmoniously? Remember, this is the science forum, so "the fall" copout won't cut it.


Your god believes in Unicorns
Replies to this message:
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 8 of 396 (579219)
09-03-2010 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by hooah212002
09-02-2010 10:25 AM


Re: Contestant Number 1
Also, any number of invasive species. If life was designed, why doesn't all life live harmoniously? Remember, this is the science forum, so "the fall" copout won't cut it.

Oh my goodness, this is palpably the most ignorant, stupid, moronic statement I ever witnessed in all of my years of debating.

You honestly believe that relative behavior in animals and organisms, has anything to do with, or should be characteristic of the order that is so easily demonstratable.

this is the kind of nonesense you want me to participate in.

Are you intellectually challenged

Dawn Bertot


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Nij
Member (Idle past 2962 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 9 of 396 (579244)
09-03-2010 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dawn Bertot
09-03-2010 8:41 PM


Re: Contestant Number 1
Um, yes, he does, and rightly so.

If a group of organisms live in a harmonious order, then their relative behaviour to each other is kind of the entire makeup of that harmony.

How can you have something living in harmony with something else if they have no relationship whatsoever? How can you have an "easily demonstrable order" if there are no relationships and therefore no order at all?

this is the kind of nonesense you want me to participate in.

Are you intellectually challenged


Meh. Neither he nor I hold the creationist position, so we are bound to represent it as we see it. Just as you misrepresent evolution and science in general when arguing against us.
Not holding two conflicting positions at once is actually something I would expect of one with intelligence capable of reaching a conclusion as to selecting one or the other. Your lack of respect and direct resort to insult, however, indicates that perhaps you aren't yet at that level.
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Just being real
Member (Idle past 2008 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 10 of 396 (579328)
09-04-2010 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
09-01-2010 8:59 AM


What's a creation experiment exactly?
I propose they provide us with some experiments that would be in accordance with said "ID/creation science".

If I'm not mistaken, isn't creation, a form of origins theory? How does one do a scientific experiment on an event that is postulated in history. This sounds silly. Akin to asking someone to do Lincoln Gettysburg address science. That's a historic event. We can use scientific observations to possibly help validate some of the key components of the story, which would lend credibility to the story, but we can not do experiments to scientifically prove an event.


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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 11 of 396 (579331)
09-04-2010 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Just being real
09-04-2010 8:13 AM


Re: What's a creation experiment exactly?
but we can not do experiments to scientifically prove an event.

You cannot "prove" anything is science. We build evidence to support a theory. The evidence may become overwhelmingly supportive of the theory, but the theory is never "proved", simply exceptionally well-supported.

How does one do a scientific experiment on an event that is postulated in history.

By working out what evidence such an event would leave, and then looking for that evidence. If Big Bang cosmology is true, then there should be a relic radiation permeating the Universe consisting of the first photons to fly free from the early dense ionised gases that ould have trapped photons. Thsi radiation should be black body in spectrum, and it should be very low temperature - just a few degrees Kelvin - owing to the expansion of the Universe since the photons escaped the dense gas.

Guess what? We see the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation, exactly as it should be if it is the hypothesised radiation from the time following the Big Bang. The CMBR is excellent evidence for the Big Bang comsology, despite the fact that these photons were emitted 13.6 billion years ago.

Compared to the above, finding evidence for the creation event of the Universe that happened just 6000 years ago should be a piece of cake.

Now, what evidence should we expect from this creation event?


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Nij
Member (Idle past 2962 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 12 of 396 (579332)
09-04-2010 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Just being real
09-04-2010 8:13 AM


Re: What's a creation experiment exactly?
But just as we can gather evidence about how Lincoln's address occurred and did not occur, we should be able to find clear evidence that exists if and only if something was intelligently designed or saltationally created.

Hooah asks for any experiment which has the potential to falsafy divine creation or ID if those were not correct. Yet not a single creation "scientist" can provide such an experiment, nor indeed even a consistent rationale in which the divine or supernatural could be included in the scientific method.

They've got no leg to stand on, so they fall flat on their faces as soon as the race starts.
But like all fair-minded people, we give them the chance to try if they want to. And like all reasonably sensible people, we laugh when they, despite knowing their incapability, fail miserably.


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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 13 of 396 (579334)
09-04-2010 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Nij
09-03-2010 9:50 PM


Re: Contestant Number 1
If a group of organisms live in a harmonious order, then their relative behaviour to each other is kind of the entire makeup of that harmony.

This is nothing short of comical. Define harmonious order, in a natural selection, survival of the fittest enviornment

How can you have something living in harmony with something else if they have no relationship whatsoever? How can you have an "easily demonstrable order" if there are no relationships and therefore no order at all?

The obvious order is in the mechanical, coherent and orderly designed parts of the organism that collectively make up the relative designed product. The behavior of the designed product is relative, how could it be anything but relative.

To answer the first part of your question, there is no harmony where behavior is relative.

Dawn Bertot


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Just being real
Member (Idle past 2008 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 14 of 396 (579338)
09-04-2010 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by hooah212002
09-02-2010 10:25 AM


Re: Contestant Number 1
Symbiosis is most definitely not a characteristic of design. It is a sign that said organisms fill their particular niche and have evolved alongside other organisms to live harmoniously with them.

I don't think symbiosis could be used in either argument. That's because it could work well within either school of thought. Only observations that fit within a design paradigm, but that can not be explained by observed natural processes, would seem to fill the bill.

So first we would have to ask ourselves what can only happen by a design process and not by a natural one. And how do we test this?


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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 396 (579347)
09-04-2010 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Just being real
09-04-2010 8:13 AM


Re: What's a creation experiment exactly?
Jbr writes:

If I'm not mistaken, isn't creation, a form of origins theory?

No, it is not a Theory at all. A Theory explains how some observed fact happens. Creation is just magic.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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