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Author Topic:   Herbal supplements in US commonly have traces of contaminants
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 16 of 102 (579125)
09-03-2010 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dogmafood
09-03-2010 5:14 PM


Information should be increased and regulation decreased.
Who is going to provide the information if there is no regulation?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2010 5:14 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 17 of 102 (579126)
09-03-2010 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
09-03-2010 9:08 AM


The reason you don't hear about contaminated or side effects from herbals
Buzsaw, did you read the OP at all??
I linked to an article about herbs for sale in US being commonly contaminated with pesticides and heavy metals.
We're hearing about contaminated herbs, Buz.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 18 of 102 (579127)
09-03-2010 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dogmafood
09-03-2010 9:29 AM


Er, what do any of those have to do with herbal supplements?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 19 of 102 (579128)
09-03-2010 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
09-03-2010 5:21 PM


Why?
Because it increases freedom and self dependency and it reduces bureaucracy and corruption.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 09-03-2010 5:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 20 of 102 (579129)
09-03-2010 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hyroglyphx
09-03-2010 10:54 AM


Re: Wipe your own ass
So, can you point to a time in history in the US when we had the correct level of regulation, in your opinion?
Or, can you point to a nation that currently seems to, in your estimation, have a good situation going on that we should try to emulate?
I am generally for a laissez-faire market, with minimal regulation.
You mean like China?
...which is where these contaminated herbs are grown.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 102 (579130)
09-03-2010 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Dogmafood
09-03-2010 5:39 PM


Because it increases freedom and self dependency and it reduces bureaucracy and corruption.
HUH?
I'm sorry but I simply do not see that at all.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 22 of 102 (579131)
09-03-2010 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by nator
09-03-2010 5:38 PM


Yeah I answered too quickly this morning. See message 13. How do I link that again?

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 23 of 102 (579132)
09-03-2010 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Omnivorous
09-03-2010 12:36 PM


Re: One man's herb
So I approach this from the intersection of cognitive liberty and public safety. If somebody wants to grow or harvest an herb and consume it, whether for recreation or medicine or poison, that's fine with me.
They can take my herb away when they pry it from my cold dead fingers. Take that, Chuck.
But herbal materials packaged as medicine and sold to the public as medicine shoud be subject to strict regulation and testing; outlandish, undocumented claims should be forbidden; materials contaminated with prescription drugs or heavy metals should lead to criminal prosecutions.
Yes, this is exactly my position as well.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 24 of 102 (579136)
09-03-2010 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
09-01-2010 7:44 PM


Speaking as a chemist, I'm worried nearly not at all about the detection of cadmium or lead in herbals at microgram levels - hell, they're at levels like that in dirt and in home-grown tomatos. What concerns me, to echo several comments above, is either 1) the presence of toxic levels of the chemicals that the herb in question synthesizes in nature, or 2) the absence of anything useful in the bottle of gimmeweed extract pills, or 3) the complete lack of a mechanism to tell if you have 1), 2), or something in between in your purchase.
There's a reason that an aspirin tablet contains 325 mg of acetylsalicylic acid: that, or twice that, is enough, but not too much, for your typical adult. Buz, how much willow bark does it take to get a proper dose of salicylate? Which species of willow? What time of year was the bark harvested? Did the tree grow in Vermont or in Louisiana, or was it northern Vietnam?
And where is the most kindergarten of studies that shows that "saw palmetto promotes prostate health", for one example? Is there any study beyond ""my uncle took it and never had prostate trouble?"

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 25 of 102 (579138)
09-03-2010 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
09-03-2010 5:42 PM


You dont see how less regulation = more freedom? Or less bureaucracy?

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 26 of 102 (579142)
09-03-2010 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Theodoric
09-03-2010 5:35 PM


I am not calling for no regulation. I am saying the regulation system is messed up.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 27 of 102 (579145)
09-03-2010 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dogmafood
09-03-2010 5:55 PM


information, regulation?
Information should be increased and regulation decreased.
Who is going to provide information if regulation is decreased?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2010 5:55 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 28 of 102 (579146)
09-03-2010 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dogmafood
09-03-2010 5:14 PM


I am pointing out that fully regulated products like tobacco,
Define "fully regulated" wrt tobacco.
alcohol,
Used moderately, alcohol is healthy.
prescription drugs and aspirin kill alot of people every year.
Prescription drugs and aspirin also help a lot of people every year.
Nobody is saying that prescription drugs or aspirin are 100% safe. Indeed, all drugs that have effects also have side effects, and this includes herbal drugs.
If an herbal drug is powerful enough to have a theraputic effect, it is also powerful enough to be a poison/have side effects. All I am suggesting is that we treat herbal drugs the same way we treat any other drug; their safety and efficacy should be demonstrated in studies paid for by any company that wishes to make health claims and make a profit selling them to the public.
If someone wants to grow herbs themselves and ingest them, that's fine, but selling them for profit is quite another thing.
As it stands right now, companies that sell herbal drugs do not have to have consistent doses, don't have to test their products for safety or efficacy before putting them on the market. "Nutritional supplements" don't have to be tested even as much as my Listerine mouthwash does.
Edited by returninator, : to remove fragment

'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy
"What we need is not the will to believe but the will to find out." - Bertrand Russell
"Man's greatest asset is the unsettled mind." - Isaac Asimov
"We not only believe what we see, to some extent we see what we believe
...The implications of our beliefs are frightening." - Richard Gregory

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 102 (579147)
09-03-2010 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dogmafood
09-03-2010 5:48 PM


You dont see how less regulation = more freedom? Or less bureaucracy?
Less bureaucracy doesn't mean more freedom. Less regulation doesn't mean more freedom, because frequently we need regulations to protect our freedom.
Government isn't the only thing that can take your freedom, that's what the free marketeers so frequently forget. Any business, for instance, is going to consider it highly profitable to take away my freedom to purchase anything but their products (or, really, rent their products, because businesses are fundamentally rent-seeking.)

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 30 of 102 (579149)
09-03-2010 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
09-03-2010 5:31 PM


Re: Wipe your own ass
I could point to 101 cases of people dying or being irreparably harmed by pharmaceuticals.
And I could point to millions of people's who's lives are saved, or were/are being significantly prolonged, and the quality of their lives being immeasurably improved by phameceuticals.
I'm not saying that there are no problems with the FDA. There are, and they need to be addressed and fixed.
My point is that however flawed the FDA's drug testing system is, it is far, far better than no testing at all, which is the current situation with herbal drugs on the market.
Edited by returninator, : No reason given.
Edited by returninator, : to clarify

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