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Author Topic:   Is it intelligent to design evolvable species?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 55 of 96 (252289)
10-16-2005 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Christian
10-16-2005 6:54 PM


I personally believe macro-evolution to be false, and that the adaptability programmed within us (micro-evolution) is evidence of intelligent design.
It's a common mistake to assert that adaptability is somehow "programmed" within living organisms; the reason that this is a mistake is because it isn't individuals that adapt at all; only populations adapt via the differential survival and reproduction of their individuals.
If adaptability were programmed, then all individuals would exhibit it, and selection would not occur. Instead what we observe is that some individuals, thanks to coincidence, exhibit congenital characteristics that allow them to survive where their peers do not; these individuals did not "adapt" to that new environment or situation, they were already born that way.
Individuals do not adapt; populations do. Thus, we know for a fact that this outcome is not "programmed" behavior of individuals, and appeals to macro vs. microevolution are false.
Even if a designer were only required for the first self-replicator, the complexity in anything that can self-replicate is enormous.
Actually it turns out that very simple self-replicators can be easily synthesized.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Christian, posted 10-16-2005 6:54 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Christian, posted 10-17-2005 11:39 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 58 of 96 (252450)
10-17-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Christian
10-17-2005 11:39 AM


What is programed is the possibility for variation.
As I've proven, it isn't "programmed." If it were programmed then all individuals would adapt.
We know that no individuals really adapt - only populations do. There's nothing a population possesses that could be said to be "programmed"; only individuals are programmed with a genetic code.
Because only populations adapt, and because populations cannot be programmed, we know that your remarks are false. Adaptation is not programmed. It's simply a natural consequence of the laws of physics.
Could you give me a few more details about how this is done?
Here's an article on a very simple chemical peptide self-replicator:
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.chemsoc.org/chembytes/ezine/2002/gross1_aug02.htm
Making things that self-replicate isn't that hard. Making useful self-replicators is another matter, I guess. My original point is that there's nothing inherent in self-replication that necessitates complexity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Christian, posted 10-17-2005 11:39 AM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Christian, posted 10-19-2005 6:03 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 62 by Christian, posted 10-19-2005 6:11 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 63 of 96 (253166)
10-19-2005 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Christian
10-19-2005 6:03 PM


Well, the example you gave me wasn't things that self-replicate.
Well, no, you read it wrong. Go back and read it again. It's talking about biological molecules not being self-replicating. The molecules in the example are self-replicating.
Although I still don't quite understand the process, according to the part I quoted, they replicated each other, not themselves.
You read it wrong.

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 Message 61 by Christian, posted 10-19-2005 6:03 PM Christian has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 64 of 96 (253169)
10-19-2005 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Christian
10-19-2005 6:11 PM


What is programmed is not adaptability within the individual, but rather, the possability for variation in the offspring.
But that's just ludicrous. The "variability" that you refer to is caused by chemical inaccuracies in the replication of DNA; its not caused by a program within the DNA itself.
Organisms are not "programmed" to vary; in fact, the laws of physics make it impossible to prevent variation.
For example, if two people have brown hair and brown eyes, they can have a child with blonde hair and blue eyes because of recessive genes which are programmed into their genetic makeup.
That's not variation. That's sexual recombination of genes. What we observe in populations is not simply the recombination of genes and the expression of recessive traits, but new traits arising through errors in gene replication.
Since that observation is not consistent with your model, we know that your model is wrong.
I think that the variation we see is already allowable in our genetic makeup.
We know from observation that it is not. A population of sufficient size will accrue new gene alleles that none of its members originally possessed. The source of these new alleles is known to be mutation.
Mutations can cause change, but they're more often harmful then beneficial.
True, but hardly an obstacle to evolution. Natural selection provides a mechanism whereby detrimental mutations are eliminated and beneficial mutations are magnified.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 10-19-2005 06:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Christian, posted 10-19-2005 6:11 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Christian, posted 10-19-2005 6:52 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 67 of 96 (253183)
10-19-2005 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Christian
10-19-2005 6:52 PM


Maybe you could give me some example of these observations.
Sure. A commonly done experiment is to raise a population of bacteria, which are asexual, from a single individual.
An individual bacterium is haploid, that is, it has only one copy of each gene (one allele). Sexual organisms like us are diploid, and have the two copies per gene (two alleles) you referred to in an earlier post.
Anyway, in an environment suited for rapid bacterial growth, a population is raised from a single individual. Every individual is a direct decendant of that first single individual. After a certain period of time, a few of those individuals are collected, and their genes are examined.
We invariably discover that the individuals differ amongst each other genetically; some of them have different alleles for each gene. Remember that the original population (of one individual) had only one allele per gene; thus, if any of its ancestors have alternate alleles - if the population has more than one allele per gene - then we know that those arose from mutation, because there's no other source of new alleles into the population.
Clear enough?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Christian, posted 10-19-2005 6:52 PM Christian has not replied

  
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