Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8950 total)
30 online now:
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,270 Year: 22,306/19,786 Month: 869/1,834 Week: 369/500 Day: 2/66 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 321 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 141 of 657 (599103)
01-04-2011 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Coyote
01-04-2011 10:44 PM


Re: Corroborating Crossing Evidence.
Coyote writes:

If I, as an archaeologist of some 40 years experience, were to find evidence of a global flood that I could conclusively document, I would spread it as far and wide as I could and then demand that the Nobel Committee coin a special Nobel Prize for archaeology. I could retire to a life of luxury and acclaim on the lecture circuit. The name "Coyote" would surpass that of Darwin in history.

actually, i suspect the first thing you'd do, being a good scientist, is get some geologist friends to look at it and try to find problems. then you'd likely do some more research, write a study, and submit it for peer review.

Problem is, in 40 years of research I have found the opposite; my own research proves that the global flood did not occur about 4,350 years as described. So that makes me a dreaded "secularist," eh?

well, yes, because you're looking at the physical evidence instead of the biblical evidence.

Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Coyote, posted 01-04-2011 10:44 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Coyote, posted 01-04-2011 11:03 PM arachnophilia has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 321 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 143 of 657 (599106)
01-04-2011 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Coyote
01-04-2011 11:03 PM


Re: Corroborating Crossing Evidence.
Correct. That's part of what I meant by "conclusively document."

ah, gotcha. cheers.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Coyote, posted 01-04-2011 11:03 PM Coyote has not yet responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 321 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 486 of 657 (612067)
04-12-2011 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 484 by MiguelG
04-12-2011 9:11 PM


it's a trap
MiguelG writes:

Note the bolded part of the quote. Here God specifically says that it is Pharaoh that will think that the Israelites are confused and entrapped, not that they actually are.

quote:
וְאָמַר פַּרְעֹה לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, נְבֻכִים הֵם בָּאָרֶץ; סָגַר עֲלֵיהֶם, הַמִּדְבָּר

and pharaoh will say of the children of israel, "they are confused in the land, the desert has shut on them"


yes, that's what it says. and the very next verse says that god will then "strengthen pharaoh's heart". the implication is very much that pharaoh is being tricked. however, short of a miracle, pharaoh's assessment is correct. they are trapped, enough that the israelites comment on it a few verses down.

quote:
And they said unto Moses: 'Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to bring us forth out of Egypt? Is not this the word that we spoke unto thee in Egypt, saying: Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it were better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.'

-- Exodus 14:11,12


so even the israelites think they're trapped. the only reason they're not is, as i said above, a miracle: god parting the waters, and allowing them to walk out of egypt on newly dry land.

Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by MiguelG, posted 04-12-2011 9:11 PM MiguelG has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by MiguelG, posted 04-15-2011 12:57 AM arachnophilia has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 321 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 493 of 657 (612374)
04-15-2011 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by MiguelG
04-15-2011 12:57 AM


Re: it's a trap
MiguelG writes:

But if I've missed something from the original Greek or Hebrew texts please let me know.

i think what you're missing is a pretty subtle point, and not so much to do with the language. it's more to do with the implications of the text, and context.

god did indeed give them very specific directions. those directions, evidently, led them into a bottleneck such that their only way forward was across a body of water. and the egyptians blocked the way back. for all intents and purposes they were trapped, and by god's own directions and actions. all, evidently, as part of a demonstration of god's power. god is setting it up so that only a miracle will save them.

this is quite consistent with the rest of exodus, leading up to this point. pharaoh is quite content to let moshe's people go, until god hardens his heart. then god sends a plague to punish egypt, a miracle to demonstrate that god is in total control. he does this ten times, each time with pharaoh relenting, until god hardens his heart again. god is essentially screwing over the israelites, intentionally, to prove a point.

and this is the culmination. he traps them at the edge of a sea, with the egyptians ready to very literally kill them, hardening pharaohs heart one last time... and then provides a most illogical escape route. right across the sea, on dry land. and then kills the egyptians, for good measure.

it's all building drama. it's part of the story. the only reason they weren't trapped was god's miracle.

now, far be it from me to support buzsaw, but if you're looking for geological features, they should such that there would be no escape route. of course, i think he's looking entirely in the wrong place.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by MiguelG, posted 04-15-2011 12:57 AM MiguelG has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2011 2:26 AM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 525 by MiguelG, posted 04-17-2011 11:27 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 321 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 494 of 657 (612375)
04-15-2011 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by ringo
04-15-2011 1:47 AM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
ringo writes:

As I've already mentioned in the thread, Buzsaw does a lot to undermine the miraculous with ideas like a "land bridge".

as do a lot of "creationists". i wonder why that is. doesn't it kind of remove the whole point if the supposedly miraculous is easily explainable by natural phenomena? where does god go in all this?


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by ringo, posted 04-15-2011 1:47 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 321 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 496 of 657 (612387)
04-15-2011 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by PaulK
04-15-2011 2:26 AM


Re: it's a trap
okay, perhaps that's correct. chariots considered, the sea itself might have been more than enough to trap them, geographically speaking. the point i was mostly intending to dispute was the difference between actually being trapped, and pharaoh merely thinking they were trapped.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2011 2:26 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2011 2:40 AM arachnophilia has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 321 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 498 of 657 (612515)
04-16-2011 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 497 by PaulK
04-15-2011 2:40 AM


Re: it's a trap
PaulK writes:

But Exodus is quite clear on the nature of that "trap". The Israelites are instructed to go back, so that the Pharoah (wrongly) thinks that they dare not attempt to cross the wilderness and are "trapped" within Egyptian territory. There's simply no need to go beyond the text and talk about the battle site - or any particular location - at all.

okay, yes, that's probably correct.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2011 2:40 AM PaulK has not yet responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 321 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 499 of 657 (612517)
04-16-2011 3:47 PM


the wrong place entirely
as i understand it, buzsaw isn't allowed to post until he gets actual evidence. or, at least, that's how he tells it. so he's responded to me in a PM, which i will now post here:

Buzsaw writes:

Hi Arac... I am not allowed to post in the Exodus thread without additional evidence so I'm messaging you about this statement:

quote:
now, far be it from me to support buzsaw, but if you're looking for geological features, they should such that there would be no escape route. of course, i think he's looking entirely in the wrong place.

One problem which you may not be considering is that the location that places were named after the assumption of the traditional Mt Sinai. Their location was determined on the credibility of the location of Mt Sinai. The Nuweiba cite topography along with the corroborating evidence and the statement in the NT about Mt Sinai being in Arabia fits the ticket much more efficiently than the traditional Mt Sinai. My understanding is that the penninsula itself was named on the assumption of the location of Mt Sinai.

this is not actually what i was talking about. the issues is that יַם-סוּף is read traditionally as "the red sea" we know today, but i'm not aware of any particular reason to think it actually means the red sea. even most literalist/fundamentalist readings make it the gulf of suez (or, iirc, for wyatt fans, the gulf of aqaba) which is much smaller than the red sea. but even this is quite out of the way for fleeing israelites. you'd be looking much further north, and to a body of water that almost certainly no longer exists.

I'm pleased that someone besides me, at least understands that they were deliberately entrapped by God so as to do in the Egyptian army for good. God wanted to make sure that they wouldn't be a problem to Moses et al later on.
Buz

i think it's a little ambiguous. i do think god intentionally trapped them in a literal sense, but that this had more to do with the pursuing egyptians than with the geography.


אָרַח

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by Admin, posted 04-16-2011 10:07 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019